Police

[Andro]

Hello, i would like to start with the fact that i am a new player (1 month or so in the server) i also invited a lot of friends to the server, we enjoyed the server for a long time until we started doing crime and seeing over 10 police cruisers, bikes, helicopters and such, about 2 days ago me and some friends were gettin arrested and over i think 8-10 police cruisers showed up, i wanted to RP with it but we got told by a female police officer: are you fucking retarded put your hands down. That was said because my friend had issues and couldn't move [lag] and he even said that he has issues in OOC, then i got told that i will be given 3 seconds to put my hands up and i got tazed instantly, which then we got put into cruisers and we waited over an hour for our charges which were not even told. And today i got caught stealing an ATM i tried to RP my way talk to the officers and i got told to shut the fuck up no one cares, which makes it so unfun to even RP. I think that police officers should have a rule. How many police officers can respond to a call and such, of course depending on the situation, i enjoy this server but i am the only one from my group of friends who is still playing because of the harassment of the police, i would like to also say that every person who i spoke with says that the city is very unfun now cause of the police, i think there were much more people over the years ''crying'' as the guy who told me to shut the fuck up would say, i think there needs to be done something.

[Suken]

well, it is something that is around for a while and not all cops do it some let you RP.

I encourage you to have instant replay on as at the end it is RP server not just typing some commands and putting people in jail and if you feel any rule was broken or it was NRP/Failrp just report it to make sure to read the rules once more to make it easier

[Bala]

-1.

Been in the PD faction for three years, not going to be dictated to by server rules when I'm allowed to join a situation for role-play within it.

I don't try and tell you how many friends you can play with.

[Andro]

On 4/30/2022 at 5:26 AM, Bala said:

-1.

Been in the PD faction for three years, not going to be dictated to by server rules when I'm allowed to join a situation for role-play within it.

I don't try and tell you how many friends you can play with.

Well it is not really a rp situation when people tell you to shut the fuck up or call you retarded, also over 10 cruisers for one dude is really insane

[Cyrus Raven]

9 hours ago, Andro said:

Well it is not really a rp situation when people tell you to shut the fuck up or call you retarded, also over 10 cruisers for one dude is really insane

These situations can be dealt with ICly through LSPD internal affairs or OOCly through a report if you think the interaction was OOCly motivated.

It can suck to have such a big response for something you perceive to be small but at the same time this means 150 other players have less police on their backs because of the arguably bad choice to put so many units on you. 

Sometimes you'll get the short end of the stick.

 

[Cyrus Raven]

3 hours ago, SmushyTaco said:

A bank robbery is a high risk high reward crime that's always met with a large amount of police arriving on the scene (which makes complete sense). That's why 10 cops minimum have to be on duty for a bank robbery to be carried out. It's meant to be met with a large amount of back up because the crime is (in most cases) meant to be done with a large amount of criminals because of the high risk nature of it all.

Your analogy doesn't hold up, you don't need 8 cruisers for a single person speeding like you would with a bank robbery (two extremely different crimes).

I do however understand that at times there are a lot of LEOs on duty but a minimal amount of crime happening which is the cause of a lot of this. I'm not sure if imposing rules on LEOs so there's not always an overkill amount of backup all the time would be the best solution but I do understand the sentiment behind it.

I believe that long term imposing some rules on LEOs and back up calls could be beneficial but I don't believe we're there yet. I think the following has to be done before imposing such rules:

1. Wait for the developers to finish all the crime updates so the crime rate goes up on the server to make this back up issue less of an issue for criminals (wait for updates so it's a less common occurrence).
2. Add some sort of script support for back up limitations. Maybe a good idea could be implementing an optional parameter in the backup command to specify the maximum amount of people who can respond (so that it closes once that limit is reached).
3. Add some script support for some activities for LEOs to do that are unrelated to other players committing crimes so they're not bored out of their minds when not much crime is happening.

These might be good things to bring up IC'ly, no script implementation is needed for this suggestion. There are always both sides to one coin. Having 10+ cops respond to a traffic stop can be seen as a waste of resources, but the other people committing crime get essentially a free pass because of this bad management of units.

What might look like an overkill to one player is essentially a free pass to 40 other players who might be doing any number of illegal activities from slightly speeding to robbery to drug trafficking.

Unit management is up to PD Command and shouldn't be regulated by OOC limitations, we have supervisors and command staff that determine what type of response is acceptable and regularly clear excess units if needed.

[IAmTurtle]

The reason there are times when 8+ cars show up to a traffic stop is due to past events. 90% of what PD/SD do is reactionary. So if you do something that will negatively affect us/state protocol and procedures will change. 

 

There is a lot of down side to scriptly limiting back up bc it is used for more than just responding to calls. A lot of which is Ic and wont be stated here as people will mg it. 

 

As i stated earlier this is just a thread made by people that are upset that they are not good enough at being criminals so they come here trying to make there lives easier. It is still really easy to evade form PD/SD its just called learning how to get good. 
 

@SmushyTaco @AnakinB @Andro

[Cyrus Raven]

14 minutes ago, SmushyTaco said:

I said the parameter to limit the number of responders would be optional, meaning it can be left empty and there would be no limit (which is the current behavior to my understanding). I also said I'm undecided if OOC rules would be beneficial and only said they could be, I never said it was absolutely necessary.

Having the optional parameter to limit unit response at the criteria of the Officer dropping the backup would be a nice feature.

[Andro]

23 hours ago, SmushyTaco said:

I think having a script implementation in the ways I specified could be a good idea though, I see no downside to it. Even if nothing about it ends up being enforced OOC having the script implementations I suggested would make enforcement easier IC.

brother there's no fun if 10 cruisers are all over one guy who went a little bit more than 80, or getting a demerit for going 92, or police LITERALLY coming close to your car to check the license plate to see if it's stolen, things can be better, being a criminal is dogshit rn, that is why i even stopped playing on my crim

[Cyrus Raven]

13 minutes ago, Andro said:

brother there's no fun if 10 cruisers are all over one guy who went a little bit more than 80, or getting a demerit for going 92, or police LITERALLY coming close to your car to check the license plate to see if it's stolen, things can be better, being a criminal is dogshit rn, that is why i even stopped playing on my crim

It's hard to take your opinion at face value when two of the points you made are either not true or can be appealed if it happened.

There is no situation where 10 cruisers get called for a simple speeding situation UNLESS there is IC reasoning to justify such response (Known criminal, known gang affiliation, history of evading an officer, etc...)

You shouldn't be getting Demerits for going 92.

Finally, there are easy ways to avoid police, but if the idea of being a crim is being allowed to break laws and complain when police respond or put more units on you based on your past then you're likely out of luck, I doubt that will ever change and I'm not against it.

[Andro]

17 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

It's hard to take your opinion at face value when two of the points you made are either not true or can be appealed if it happened.

There is no situation where 10 cruisers get called for a simple speeding situation UNLESS there is IC reasoning to justify such response (Known criminal, known gang affiliation, history of evading an officer, etc...)

You shouldn't be getting Demerits for going 92.

Finally, there are easy ways to avoid police, but if the idea of being a crim is being allowed to break laws and complain when police respond or put more units on you based on your past then you're likely out of luck, I doubt that will ever change and I'm not against it.

I feel like we're talking to a brick, but, a government employee which i will not name, went 92, and got a first degree citation and a demerit, they spoke about this with PD, the PD officer was actually a decent rank, not even a cadet, the demerit was taken down but nothing else was taken in consideration, the fact that police can do that and no one will say anything it's way too unfun, when i was new in this server i did not pay my citation for over 3 days, 8 cruisers showed up when i was exactly saying i will go pay them with you guys, meanwhile the guy was calling for back up, i am not saying hurr durr police shouldn't have fun, everyone should but right now unless you're in a big gang or something, ain't no way for someone who goes a bit over 85 to have have fun, and there was no IC reasoning i was new, no one knew me but there were 8 cruisers after a new player who didn't pay his citation, saying he will go with them and pay them.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Andro

[Cyrus Raven]

58 minutes ago, Andro said:

I feel like we're talking to a brick, but, a government employee which i will not name, went 92, and got a first degree citation and a demerit, they spoke about this with PD, the PD officer was actually a decent rank, not even a cadet, the demerit was taken down but nothing else was taken in consideration, the fact that police can do that and no one will say anything it's way too unfun, when i was new in this server i did not pay my citation for over 3 days, 8 cruisers showed up when i was exactly saying i will go pay them with you guys, meanwhile the guy was calling for back up, i am not saying hurr durr police shouldn't have fun, everyone should but right now unless you're in a big gang or something, ain't no way for someone who goes a bit over 85 to have have fun, and there was no IC reasoning i was new, no one knew me but there were 8 cruisers after a new player who didn't pay his citation, saying he will go with them and pay them.

It's not talking to a brick wall, it's just that we might have fundamental disagreements. I understand everything you've said so far and I even agree with some points, but these are mostly IC issues.

For example, the failure to pay fine charge, that could be something you can deal with IC'ly. You RP approaching people to sign a petition so that Failure to Pay a Fine can only be given after someone has been warned or so that people have up to one week to pay fines instead of three days. You take the petition to the commissioners or any government employee. Or you can submit it through the government website.

https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewforum.php?f=1369

You say ''I feel like we're talking to a brick, but, a government employee which i will not name, went 92, and got a first degree citation and a demerit, they spoke about this with PD, the PD officer was actually a decent rank, not even a cadet, the demerit was taken down but nothing else was taken in consideration, the fact that police can do that and no one will say anything it's way too unfun'' this is RP. A demerit was wrongfully given so the officer in question was approached and the demerit was removed. You can then choose to IA report someone for their misconduct and, in the case of charges with jail time, you can even take it to court and have a whole case around the situation.

What else can be done here? Ignoring you speeding? Again, petition the government to increase the speed limit in the city, gather people to protest, etc... Law Enforcement in this server is serious. Depending on the Officer you get they can be strict. If you're pulled over by a traffic unit then you're likely getting a ticket for breaking traffic laws and/or demerits. However, if you're pulled over by a Detective or another unit that has higher priority situations to be dealing with, you might just get a verbal warning. There is huge variety in outcomes depending on what else is going on, types of units, type of character being played by the Officer, etc...

Finally, ''i am not saying hurr durr police shouldn't have fun, everyone should but right now unless you're in a big gang or something, ain't no way for someone who goes a bit over 85 to have have fun, and there was no IC reasoning i was new, no one knew me but there were 8 cruisers after a new player who didn't pay his citation, saying he will go with them and pay them.'' I just don't believe this. There are plenty of ways to lay low, have fun, speed where police don't often patrol, etc... You're either really unlucky or you're just not being careful enough. If it's the latter option, I don't think PD should be blamed for that, criminal characters have to play it smarter, don't expect to just be given free reign to speed all around town, that might be fun to expect, but it would be bad RP for law enforcement to ignore, we're a roleplay server after all.

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cyrus Raven

[Thommy]

Patrol resources management is an IC issue. Maybe it is because you are the only one committing a crime at a specific period of time, so all available cops just respond to the call. If there is another armed robbery in progress, then definitely the patrol watch commander should allocate resources more efficiently and ensure there is a response to them. 

[TheOwl]

.

Edited June 12, 2022 by TheOwl

[PoliceMan101]

On 4/30/2022 at 4:26 AM, Bala said:

-1.

Been in the PD faction for three years, not going to be dictated to by server rules when I'm allowed to join a situation for role-play within it.

I don't try and tell you how many friends you can play with.

+1

I'm going to link this EXACT QUOTE to the back up rule. As a criminal we have to face the back rule whenever we want to do criminal activities. I'm going to quote an exact extract from you "not going to be dictated to by server rules when I'm allowed to join a situation for role-play within it". This is quite literally what criminal role-players have to do EVERY DAY. We are absolutely limited down by the back up rule which "dictates" exactly what and what we are not allowed to do. The fact that PD and its almost 100 member faction as of writing this gets to go to any and all situations is unrealistic and hinders roleplay. It makes 0 sense for 10 odd cruisers to turn up to something as little as fight at construction job. Criminals have something called the back up rule, of which a criminal organisation/faction whilst in a situation cannot call another allied one without pre organised activity such as going to rob a bank together. I've been on this server a very long time and absolutely understand why this is here but If criminals are having to have what situations they're allowed to roleplay in dictated by server rules how exactly do you think its fair that LEO role-players don't ? You are in a faction with almost 100 people, If per say all those people, having the exact mentality as you, are online you could have almost 100 people turn up to a single situation with absolutely nothing seen as incorrect about it. It plainly isn't realistic, fair and fun for criminal role-players. A back up rule for LEO factions either needs to be made and or the back up rule needs abolishment. 

"I don't try and tell you how many friends you can play with", in all actuality you do. I have friends in multiple gangs across the city and I CANNOT call them in many situations because It would be a back up breach rule. So that is false.

Edited June 30, 2022 by RuleBritannia

[Bala]

I didn't make the back up rule, blame the criminal factions that wanted to play human centipede with one another and kill everyone else off, for that.

As for PD, we've got 100 members and the most we will have on at any one time is Sunday for the meeting, when there's maybe 20-30 PD on.

You wouldn't get all of the PD on at the same time because we're in all different time-zones where as smaller factions tend to congregate and recruit in specific times of day

My point was, that if the server got to that point for me and PD, I'd rather do something else with my time. 

[PoliceMan101]

On 7/1/2022 at 2:33 AM, Bala said:

I didn't make the back up rule, blame the criminal factions that wanted to play human centipede with one another and kill everyone else off, for that.

As for PD, we've got 100 members and the most we will have on at any one time is Sunday for the meeting, when there's maybe 20-30 PD on.

You wouldn't get all of the PD on at the same time because we're in all different time-zones where as smaller factions tend to congregate and recruit in specific times of day

My point was, that if the server got to that point for me and PD, I'd rather do something else with my time. 

Respectfully but If you have only 20-30 members around at one time that is not our problem, plus where is the other 80 ? If they are inactive then that is a problem to be dealt with ICly. If the backup rule exists then so should a rule preventing PD swarming little infractions. 

[Beet]

I think the issue that underlines your post is the fact that people in the server, whether LEO, civilian or criminal, are often impatient and spontaneous.  

In regards to an officer demanding your friends to put your hands up, this to me shows clear impatience. With the server revolving around a VOIP system, people's voices can move much faster than that of the actions of their character. This is natural due to the limitation of you controlling a character in a game and not controlling it like you would in real life. The clashing of wanting instantaneous reaction of an order (i.e. "put your hands up") and someone physically responding to that on their end by typing in the command to perform the requested action leads to conflict. People want you to move faster than physically possible and players often start getting frustrated - demanding you move faster or do things quicker. This results in rushed roleplay and/or roleplay that flies in the face of what I am sure most players want: a fun, entertaining and somewhat realistic roleplay interaction.

I think this issue is only going to be resolved when players start using common courtesy. That being, giving players enough time to respond to roleplay (without taking the piss of course) and understanding that someone, even if they wanted to, can only type commands and roleplay so fast. I am not saying that there needs to be rule implementation to encourage people to be courteous to each other, but maybe that would be a solution. 

Turning to spontaneity, I think the majority of the situations are spontaneous, spur of the moment decisions. Whether that be criminals backing up their friends to commit a crime or police responding to an incident, the level of response from parties is very reliant on what is happening on the server in relation to your character in that moment. People often turn up to events they need not necessarily or realistically would turn up to in real life because, lets face it, you want to get involved in some RP. There is little scope as I see for much developed roleplay as the majority of the player base are sadly not interested in developing story lines or situations where their characters are doing things with specific purpose. For the wide part, people are mainly concerned with gaining assets and defending assets. People turn up to things to get involved. If nothing is happening in the server and backup is requested for a traffic stop, you get more units. Likewise, if nothing is happening I am sure criminals turn up to help their friends more readily and in greater number than if there was a lot of situations going on within their relative sphere of interaction. I think if this situation is to change player's mindsets need to change dramatically: something that I sadly do not see happening. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Beet

[LucasMadrazo]

+1

I think its just wild how the only people fighting for the Police, are the police.

They are OVER POWERED and they know it; they just don't want the fun to end.

[Buggs]

I'd like to quote a staff member that recently handled a report against the Dragons faction "Concerning the Dragons specifically, having a total of 6, and (later 7!) vehicles involved in a chase would be considered Non-Roleplay Convoying. Chasing someone with this many vehicles on a busy street is unrealistic and promotes poor quality roleplay."

This should apply to cops as well. SD has stopped chasing LSD members because it is more harmful to the citizens and other cars on the road that cops are supposed to be RPing exist. I don't see why in the city, which is more populated then SD territory, this isn't applied as well. It seems very NRP for 10-12 cop cars to be leaping and jumping around on the street, doing the exact same things as the criminal they're chasing are doing. It's called reckless operation when civilians do it...
 

[Cyrus Raven]

On 8/14/2022 at 3:27 AM, Olivia Can said:

I'd like to quote a staff member that recently handled a report against the Dragons faction "Concerning the Dragons specifically, having a total of 6, and (later 7!) vehicles involved in a chase would be considered Non-Roleplay Convoying. Chasing someone with this many vehicles on a busy street is unrealistic and promotes poor quality roleplay."

This should apply to cops as well. SD has stopped chasing LSD members because it is more harmful to the citizens and other cars on the road that cops are supposed to be RPing exist. I don't see why in the city, which is more populated then SD territory, this isn't applied as well. It seems very NRP for 10-12 cop cars to be leaping and jumping around on the street, doing the exact same things as the criminal they're chasing are doing. It's called reckless operation when civilians do it...
 

I agree. Shouldn't be a double standard. It might be Non-RP, but I would rather see criminals be allowed to have 5-7 vehicles involved in a chase and have PD/SD react IC'ly than only one side being able to do it.

[Bala]

End of the day, some chases get a little excessive but with the way things are in terms of the PD at the moment, if we limit the amount of cops that can be in a pursuit we'll lose cops and ironically enough there is quite a big portion of the day where we don't have enough units.

The difference is, we're sending more and more units to STOP someone committing a crime which would RPly be in the interests of the city.
When a gang has a large convoy going after someone, they're committing crimes and drawing a lot of attention to themselves which is not really realistic is it?

[Cyrus Raven]

3 minutes ago, Bala said:

End of the day, some chases get a little excessive but with the way things are in terms of the PD at the moment, if we limit the amount of cops that can be in a pursuit we'll lose cops and ironically enough there is quite a big portion of the day where we don't have enough units.

The difference is, we're sending more and more units to STOP someone committing a crime which would RPly be in the interests of the city.
When a gang has a large convoy going after someone, they're committing crimes and drawing a lot of attention to themselves which is not really realistic is it?

Intentions behind both responses are clearly different but their actions can already have enough of risk/consequence IC'ly without having to label it as Non-RP, no? They have the very high chance of being shot, along side hefty fines and long sentences if caught.

Essentially, it's (in my view) a ''dumb choice'' to make as a criminal player, but those choices can be punished ICly, the intentionality behind a player/faction shouldn't excuse the behaviour (AKA, it's either non-RP for all or for no one).

It seems hard to justify the 6-8 car long snakes I see around down town LS by PD if the standard we're pushing is ''Chasing someone with this many vehicles on a busy street is unrealistic and promotes poor quality roleplay''

[TheOwl]

You can't enforce realism for one side of the server and have ooc exceptions for another because (insert reason that doesn't matter).

 

Criminals want to be involved in chases just as much as cops. If you don't have enough units that's an IC issue.

[kris giggs]

1 hour ago, TheOwl said:

You can't enforce realism for one side of the server and have ooc exceptions for another because (insert reason that doesn't matter).

 

Criminals want to be involved in chases just as much as cops. If you don't have enough units that's an IC issue.

A bit of a paradox here. It is realistic for cops to respond in such a large number, and it unrealistic for a street gang or mafia per se to chase someone in a convoy - in a large grouping. The police will always have the upper hand, as it should, as it does in real life, and the reason the rules are so direct and stifling is because people only promote realism when it suits them. The whole argument here is, if we can't have it, they can't either, and if they have it, we should have it as well which is a very bad narrative to spread in these instances.

The rules have progressed immensely and as someone who felt what the rules were like in 2019 (which is what you are pushing for with this topic) on their own skin, we are in a much better place. Someone has to keep the gangs in check so they don't go out of control and turn the server into a TDM - police in an in-character setting, and sadly, the rules, since the community, specifically past (un)official criminal factions had different ideas compared to Faction Services and executive staff I can imagine.