Bala

Say less

Trying to force people not to roleplay them as what they are is like peeing into the wind, you just end up with very wet shoes. How we choose to think of them doesn’t make a difference to the response. It’s a 911 call to a location, we respond and do our thing so the firefighters can do theirs. We then spend the next 30 minutes clearing it out and then go on about our day. Basically what Riggy said. It’s the same thing with the static drug labs and chops before. All this selective memory stuff becomes pseudo-metagamey and memey. At least at a chop, the person may or may not be chopping a car. Apartments go boom for one reason and one reason only. if someone goes into an apartment, I’m not gunna assume they are running a lab but if an apartment building goes boom then best believe I’m gunna assume something bad has gone on and respond accordingly. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

I didn't take it off track. There was no original statement to reaffirm about this. Changing it now is pointless, for reasons that both you and I are both aware of. It's an explosion, a big explosion and the scene needs to be secured. Which means only people that need to go in (cops/medics) should go in. The end result is the same, so changing it makes no sense. I don't know how people can have expectations of PD/SD to be realistic then if they are skipping the realism part in order for cooking to be cheaper. I find that especially hard to take from someone that used to stand outside these situations and do the exact thing he's telling people not to do. Make your mind up, either we're going for realism or we're going by the game. It can't be both.

You want to talk realism from police? Okay, let's talk realism. Putting a drug lab into a high end apartment complex. This is akin to the rule about not being able to ram with $300-400k vehicles. Cutting the apartment in half with floating flooring for easier access. Putting a stupid amount of doors in an apartment even when it doesn't make any sense to do so. Using bolt cutters on doors that have hinges. No long-term damage to an apartment, despite a large enough explosion that half the city hears it. No damage to any of the surrounding apartments. Every time an apartment explodes, drugs or drug making apparatus is found inside. If you want to expect realism, then make it make sense. Until then, when we get a 911 call, we answer it. No one in PD likes attending these things, they are monotonous but it's part of a ever shortening list of situations we can respond to. No point arguing over short term fixes/problems/solutions and PD policy is definitely not going to be decided by any of us responding to this thread lol. This will go away if the Apartment Labs get replaced by something else, which has been suggested quite fantastically by yours truly.

What..

Yeah I know, SoonTM.

I'm no firefighter but I know all about them hose.

Can't really bang the realism drum when you're using a $400,000 luxurious apartment to cook crack in. Apartment Drug Labs don't make any sense and the server in general will be better when they don't exist anymore.

Right, you might not intentionally do it. But then what about Johnny Jackass doing it? Maybe Johnny stops when he's asked to, maybe he continues, maybe he apologises. But if you're not willing to take that kind of abuse, it's the end of the server for you, which is a damn shame. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But there is a biiiiiiigggg difference in hearing and seeing these words when they are personally used against you in your personal life. N****r is an extremely loaded word and we are not a responsible player-base that has enough character development to hide behind the excuse that it's the character saying it and we should be keeping it in-character. Same goes with someone getting called a t**p or a t****y because they've chosen to play a feminine character with a masculine sounding voice. I don't actually know why I expected any different when I started this thread to be honest, it's hard enough trying to get people to see the other sides of criminal v. cop, why did I assume that people would respond sympathetically to how this can effect other players. I hope that those that get subjected to this kind of bullshit can appreciate that some of us do value your inclusion in the community and would happily trade a few slurs for you being able to enjoy your time here. That'll do me for this thread I think. Enjoy your "free" speech x

While it's a insult, it's not specific to homosexuality. The proposed banned slurs, to me, would be ones that single out a specific group of people.

That's not really how it is works, the content of GTA V means that it's deemed by the ratings boards as inappropriate for people not of that age. There is no responsibility to accept, they're not supposed to be playing it but no one is going to enforce minors playing video games and we're not going to enforce an age limit on people playing here. The game content itself is not the issue, the content of single-player is irrelevant to this conversation as the world and people with in it are populated by us. The voices we hear, are voices of real humans in real time. The words that are read are written by real humans in real time. Reacting to being called a n***** or a f***** isn't soft in my book. If you were to get touchy over being called a cocksucker or a son of a bitch, then I'd agree with you. The background of the person saying these kind of things, is not important. If you are not in a position where you cannot be held accountable for your actions, you got no business being here. Everyone is accountable. It doesn't matter about their upbringing or their internal struggles because them using derogatory slurs doesn't negatively impact them, it impacts others. You talk about seeing offensive things on the internet and you clicking out, but that's you seeing those things. You are going to wherever you are going and see those things. If you are seeing them on ECRP then that's one thing, but if you're on reddit or whatever site you are on, then it's an issue for that site or community. It's simple for you, because you are still in control of those things. You may never go back to that site but it's not relevant to ECRP. If we're roleplaying on ECRP and you racially abuse me, you (Clank) are still saying it to me and I (Bala) still hearing you say it, regardless of whether it's to my character or not. Vocalising these slurs adds a extra tangible level of reality to it and to some people, it's to a point where they don't feel comfortable playing here anymore and putting themselves in a position where it goes on. If I'm in that position and we're roleplaying then who does that hurt? It hurts me, on a personal level and I don't want to play here anymore and it hurts the server because it's one less person playing in the community. It doesn't hurt you, so it wouldn't be your problem. I'm glad that words don't effect you at this point in your life. I said this to someone else, but this isn't about you as an individual. It's about creating and maintaining an environment that appeals to as many people as possible. Those lobbies are incredibly toxic, especially to female, LGBTQ+ and ethnic minorities. These slurs don't effect me on a personal level, but that isn't the point, I'm going so hard after this for those people that don't feel comfortable using their microphones or have to put up with the same shit they have to put up with in their personal lives. Rightly or wrongly, I feel like I have a little platform in ECRP and it just feels right at this point to use that to try and push for whatever change for those of us who get the rough end of behaviour like this. But also, to try and make up for my own failings in these areas.

I'm happy that that is the case for you and I hope that continues, but unfortunately, it's not just about whether or not you find these slurs offensive or not. It's about the community, as a whole. Are you advocating that if people don't wish to be racially abused or subjected to homophobic/transphobic insults, they should go and play in a different community or even not use the internet at all? I'm sure this is probably a inside joke or some sort of meme, but I'm trying to get a serious point across here. Your post isn't helpful either way. Couple things here Albert. One, we're playing a 18 rated game with a bunch of teenagers and Two, if you it's an 18+ rated game, then we're all supposed to conduct ourselves like adults right? As in, be able to be responsible for our choices and what we say. Couple things regarding your sex scene comment. They're both almost fully clothed during the "sex scene", it's not hentai. Second thing is, how does sex scenes in general equate to racist and homophobic language? It's like comparing an apple to a television. At the end of the day, we're playing an 18+ game, so you can control what you say to other people or at least be held accountable for it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm seeing some really ignorant opinions on this. Just because it doesn't personally effect you, doesn't mean that it's right. By all means, disagree with restricting the use of these slurs but the "its the internet" point of view doesn't really wash in 2021.

Nope, things are not fine as they are, at all. You cannot take back saying things or the effect those words might have on people. The cat is already out of the bag at that point. Maybe someone listens if you ask them in /b to stop and maybe they don’t. The reality is, some people don’t stop. That’s going to cause more issues. You know why people are less likely to real world trade? Because they know the consequences of doing it. Same goes with Racist or Homo/Transphobic slurs. If people know there is serious punishment at the end of that rainbow, it’s more of a deterrent than we currently have.

The problem Ronnie is that the use of some of these words does go beyond the game and effects people in a way that isn't healthy for the community. Calling someone a dick is an insult but it's not the same severity as calling someone the n word for example. Yes, people could potentially use the word to motivate their own IC actions by using IC violence but that's assuming they are in a position where that's a possibility. For this to run smoothly, context has to be out of the window because there is too much twisting and playing of the rules already. It's use cannot be open to interpretation. If you say it and it's a genuine accident (as it is sometimes just a part of people's every day language), then apologising for it in /b should suffice. But if no apology was further coming or you continued to use these slurs then you'd have to be dealt with. I know people are resistant to this. I've made a lot of good suggestions on this forum but honestly, this is the one I feel the most strongly about. I don't know why, it might be an age thing but we just gotta do better man.

You're advocating making a report, then saying that changing it will result in more reports? That make no sense. Also, what RP isn't going to happen because you can't throw a N Bomb around? Racist RP? How many RPers do you know that use these terms and how many of those use those terms for the betterment of RP and not as a lazy insult? Eclipse taking a zero stance on these certain slurs is going to at the very least give those affected by them, the knowledge that the community cares about their enjoyment and isn't going to let people weasel their way out of getting in trouble for it by saying stuff like "it's part of my RP" and depending on the staff member they get, might get away with it and might not. We want people to stream the game, to get more people into Eclipse Roleplay but no reputable big streamer is going to stick around on Eclipse with this kind of behaviour happening. We don't just want roleplay in game, we want a better community. Some of the best people I've known in ECRP are part of ethnic minorities, are homosexual or transsexual. It's helped me in my own personal life be more accepting of different people to myself. I think that's something to be encouraged and celebrated. If it means that more people enjoy their time in Eclipse, we can give up saying the N word and such, surely?

@piney When I say gender based, I don't mean sexist insults like bitch. When I say gender based, I'm talking about calling someone a "trap" for example because their voice is more masculine. I think that's something that has perhaps been misunderstood, I'm talking about the worst case insults here. I don't want us to get rid of all insults, I just want to get rid of the ones that are going to have the most negative impact typically on a person OOC. Specifically racial and homo/transphobic insults. With respect, using common sense to guide rules in an ideal world is a great idea but here, common sense is not all that common. If players can say or do something, they will to the fullest extent possible. Currently, you'd have to explain your context to an admin for using some of these slurs but what I'm suggesting is that, if you use specific slurs, there is no room for debate. You just should not be using them. You use them once, you get a warning for it. You use them again and you're gone. We have far too many ambiguous rules that go into shades of grey. Something like this should be black and white.

Tell that to the group of individuals I spent 5 minutes trucking to DOC that decided to call each other f****t back and forth. When they were told to stop, they replied with cutting /b. That's anything but simple. Admins were busy elsewhere at the time, so we had to put up with it. Does that happen all the time, no? Does it happen a lot? Probably not, can't really judge. But does it still happen too much? Yes. These slurs aren't even used for meaningful RP, it's just people thinking it's funny or edgy to drop N bombs on people. Yeah, perhaps it'd take some of the edge of some of the street RP that gangs do but there are a number of potential solutions. We blanket ban the use of specific words. We blanket ban all derogatory terms linked to race, sexual orientation and gender. We allow all derogatory terms but everyone involved in a specific situation must consent OOCly beforehand. This would allow private roleplay to still allow for it. Example, a street gang hanging out with one another or arguing with another group that has given their consent to it. We allow some terms with OOC permission but ban others specific terms. I'm not suggesting a ban on insults here. You want to call someone a dick, call them a dick. You want to call them a pussy, call them a pussy. But there are certain words that carry too much weight to people to throw around like we do, even with a partial rule in place. Those words are the words we can yeet. If it's a first offence, then the administrators should be reasonable with their punishment, of course. I realise that people casually say these things sometimes, both in IRL and IC and don't mean it necessarily in a nasty way but to others, it can come across as nothing but malicious. If someone is however going to continue using these kind of terms however, then they should be gone from Eclipse. On a personal level, I've made this topic as much for myself to remind me to be better as much as try and improve the community side of Eclipse. Like I said, i've said some of this stuff in the past but it is wrong to do it and we don't need to be doing it, we can have as much fun without it and be more inclusive wid it.

People using certain slurs rubs me the wrong way. There was no implication, it was a statement. We already outlaw certain types of roleplay on this server for good reason. One of those reasons being that it makes people feel incredibly uncomfortable OOC to be involved in, either as a bystander or as an active participant in said roleplay. Using the N word or calling someone a t**p/t****y because they have a masculine voice playing a female character or calling someone a f****t provoke similar levels of discomfort in players as those other types of roleplay so why would we allow it? The rule that is already in place is in my view inadequate. Once it's gotten to the stage of reporting it, it's already been said. That person on the other end of it has already heard it, likely a number of times. Before and during making this topic, I've spoken with a few people who have been on the receiving end of things and the outlook is negative. That it's something unfortunate that they just have to get on with and they don't really want to speak up, for fear it might be used against them later. In a report to an extent, you have to defend why it's offensive to you and these are KaReN issues, they're massive problems. Yeah GTA and the server contains dark themes, but we've already stuck a fork in the sand and established certain roleplay isn't allowed. Some of the comments here are that it's a slippery slope, what slope is that? That you can't go to the easy options that will cause actual issues for people on an OOC level, like it's a fucking COD lobby? Can you really not find more creative ways to get your own roleplay across than bringing out the N Word, really? It's an 18 rated game, but we have a lot of teenagers playing on the server, so where's the line? People can't really be that dense to the world around them now, surely? This isn't 10-15 years ago where anything goes and people had to hide themselves. I'd rather us lose players that cannot live without being able to use the N Word than decent players that are put off playing because people can't stop themselves saying insults. Perhaps if folk spent more time thinking about what they want to say, before saying it, we'd be better off.

I’m not sure that free speech equates to a license to use racial slurs and it’s lazy to think so. Put yourself in the shoes of someone that is subjected to this kind of abuse in person on a regular basis offline. They come in game to enjoy themselves and have fun, not to have to listen to the same shit. Yeah, you can ask someone to stop in /b but at that point, the damage is done. They’ve already heard it. We have lots of black and Asian players in this community. We have lots of LGBT+ players in this community. They don’t need to be subjected to hearing the same kind of shit they have to put up with offline because little Jimmy can’t control himself. People saying ‘WeLl ItS rOlEpLaY’. — Alright, bet. Next time I see you in game, my character is tugging some dick and moaning loudly into the microphone because that’s all roleplay right? While we are at it, maybe remove the gross roleplay rule altogether or allow noncing on the server too? After all, this is supposed to be realistic right? There’s noncing and sexual assault in real life after all right? What.. it’s not necessary for me to realistically roleplay a chronic masterbator with a shit fetish and it’s making you feel uncomfortable out of character that I’m moaning into my microphone? Damn, you snowflake, how dare you limit my roleplay! I’m not going to sit here, be a hypocrite and pretend that I have never used racial slurs or even been homophobic at some point. I have and I’m not proud of it at all. I don’t even feel comfortable writing the words without censoring them to make my point. We already do not allow certain types of roleplay on the server, for good reason, even with player consent. The reality is, calling someone a n****r or a t****y or a f****t in-character is going to effect people negatively OOC. When people are hearing this kind of shit in their personal lives and being actively discriminated against for it, it’s going to have an effect and it’s going to make them not want to log in. Yes it’s a roleplay server, but it’s not a roleplay server where people play their characters. I’m sorry but it’s not. The right to free speech is abused in this way by people to hide behind their characters and say whatever THEY want to say. You could still insult other people, just not using THOSE kinds of slurs. If you can’t roleplay here without having the freedom to call someone the n word, you need to get better at roleplay and give your head a wobble. At least snowflakes are original.

You don't really play here anymore Sharkie so you don't support anything.

The topic of this discussion is.. is it time for us as a community to disallow the use of certain derogatory slurs to be used in VOIP? Personally, this topic has been raised a few times before and to be honest, I was opposed to making it a rule because I'm not fond of limiting roleplay and my honest opinion was and to a degree still is, that certain words or phrases could still be used, responsibly by the person OOC playing the character, to add realism and an extra dimension to roleplay situations. My personal background means that I'm as far away from being any kind of discriminated against minority as you can get. So, i've never been on the end of any real discrimination in my personal life. I don't know what it's like to be on the other end of that insult and I'm not going to pretend I haven't said some of these things in ignorance, because I have. That being said, I got into a situation last night when a couple of people were screaming the word "f****t" at each other in close proximity in a situation that I couldn't just remove myself from. It wasn't going to trigger me on a personal level, but it was actually really jarring. For someone that that kind of slur would personally attack, it must be horrendous to be on the other end of that. I'm not a criminal for example, so the insults over VOIP aren't usually based on sexual orientation or race, I don't get exposed to it that much, but having had a chat with some of the community members that are part of the LGBT+ community or different races, that it does happen and it does happen more on the criminal side of things. Like a number of others, I stream Eclipse on Twitch and people using racist or homophobic slurs over VOIP could potentially compromise my ability to do so. I spoke to a couple other streamers that play here, that don't stream here because of that potential. That's pretty sad. Ultimately, I'm not trying to push any kind of woke agenda here. The reality is though, use of some of these slurs is going to have an out-of-character impact on people and I think it goes beyond that person being a "snowflake" or this being "the internet". I don't trust some of our player-base to be able to use these slurs in a responsible way, to further roleplay so I do think that we should look at banning their use. All our players have the right to play hate-free but also, all our players have the right to their own personal beliefs, so I'm not trying to change people's outlooks. I just think it would be in the best interests of the harmony of community in Eclipse if we didn't use those kind of slurs at any point anymore. Set out clearly what is and is not acceptable, remove people that don't live by them rules. Surely, we can all roleplay without it?

I like this faction and it has a good reputation from what i've seen when it comes to dealing with PD. Had a pursuit with Joshua Reece tonight as well, one of the best pursuits some of us have been involved in. Hope you guys make it official and continue to go from strength to strength.

Buckle your seat, young'un. The suggestions section isn't useless if you use it with the understanding that it's a place to put down your ideas, not necessarily for the developers to go in there and get inspiration for new server features. There are some suggestions in there that do eventually make their way into the server. But you and I guess others need to understand something, there are two developers. NBDY and Osvaldon. Both put a considerable amount of time and effort into updating the server in lots of different ways beyond just the script but like you and me, they also have personal lives that require attention too. You might ask, well why don't they get more people to work on the script? From a development point of view, the other people might have different ideas about the server than the current devs. From a security point of view, NBDY and Osvaldon have been burned before by people they've entrusted to work on things and also, they've put a considerable amount of time into developing Eclipse to this point. I'm sure you'd be protective of your script too in the same situation. While your voice and my voice and whoever elses can make a difference, we're not the only ones speaking. Lots of people means lots of opinions and sometimes people cannot decide on a particular course of action. So, while I'm sure the staff team are grateful for you putting your ideas forward, I wouldn't take it to heart if they don't get used. The same people working on the development now, are the same people that got us to this point. So, I think we should place trust in them that they know what they are doing and wait to see what they do next.

You've said it yourself in your second sentence, your friend did an illegal turn so right away, there is cause for the stop. In terms of the other cop cars arriving, something you should bare in mind is that sometimes we don't have enough units to handle the situations and also, sometimes we have too many units. It's impossible to get the balance right, but having one cop car or ten cop cars is irrelevant to you in that situation. In terms of third person, that's how it is. Can you imagine how complicated first person points of view would make reports? Cops do not set the crimes and times, the commissioners do. They are only giving you the appropriate charge for what happened. No more, no less. The Commissioners are comprised of the highest level of staff on the server so if anyone is going to decide what is fair and balanced, then it's probably going to be them. I don't see any abuse of power here. I see them taking you to jail for the time you should go in for, working within the rules that have been set out for them by the server admins and being more on the scene than usual because there are a lack of situations happening at that time. It's irrelevant what other countries or even the US does, because we have our own penal code to follow. True. Firstly, if this happened at the Farm, then you will know from your own time within the LSPD, that it's unlikely that we were the ones that the original poster encountered, but thanks for taking the opportunity to offer a negative comment on how we choose to operate our faction. Perhaps if you had paid a little more attention to the details of this post and applied yourself a little better within our faction, you may have been able to help us build a better brick wall. I can't speak for the Sheriffs Department but the LSPD as a faction tries to strive for the best possible roleplay experience on Eclipse. We can't always get every situation spot on but we try to push the level of roleplay up whenever possible. This all seems an IC issue so it's not really something to create a OOC faction rule around. It is what it is, but there was no foul play in this instance at all.

Hello Nero