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tylxrrr

Offensive Language Rule Change

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Below I have listed the current rule on offensive language.

 

30/JUN/2020

Changed under 6. Advertising and Public Chat

  • OLD: Players may use offensive language in IC chat for roleplay but not excessively.
     
  • NEW: Players may use offensive language in IC chat for roleplay but not excessively, and must stop if asked by another player OOCly. 
     
  • CLARIFICATION: While we respect the fact that we're a roleplay server and we expect community members to create their fictional characters and RP around them, we also want our community to be welcoming for everyone. It's important that you understand that it should make RP sense for your character to behave in a way it does, whether that's being racist, homophobic etc - At some point, it becomes someone pushing their OOC ideology onto their IC character, thinking it's acceptable. 

    This minor change does not pertain to the usage of offensive language OOCly. We will not tolerate e.g. racial slurs OOCly, whether it's to a friend or someone else, it does not have any place on our platform. This change only strengthens the ability for players to be more comfortable playing on our server, and feel more welcoming. 

What am I suggesting?

I am suggesting that the rule on offensive language become:

Players may use offensive language in IC chat for roleplay if and only if they get OOC consent from players around them.

Why?

This rule suggestion stemmed from me reading a discussion in #i-have-a-question earlier today about the offensive language rule.

I understand that people may want to roleplay a racist character or a sexist character, but even though a slur may be used ICly, there is still an actual person on the other side. That IC slur may still affect someone on the other side of the screen.

Now, in many other roleplay communities, offensive language is not even allowed at all! I feel disgusting saying this, but we should be grateful we are able to use offensive language in our roleplay, However, I think we could do better with this rule. 

By the time a homophobic slur is said ICly, the damage is already done and saying OOCly not to use that language is like putting a band aid on a gunshot wound. It just does not make any sense.

I know people may reply to this suggestion saying "It is just in-character" or "It is just roleplay" or "It happens in real-life" or "You are soft", but honestly, it is just about acknowledging that you are talking to an actual human being and you do not know their OOC situation. It is just about being a decent human being and having respect. 

I considered making this rule suggestion about not allowing offensive language at all, but I do not want to restrict people's roleplay. To use offensive language ICly, all you would have to do is look at the IDs around you and PM each person asking for consent for racism or whatever it may be.

Example:

"/pm 16 Do you mind me being homophobic ICly?" or anything along those lines.

I understand that "offensive language" is quite vague, so I will list somethings what would fall under it.

Offensive Language

  • Racism
  • Homophobia
  • Xenophobia
  • Transphobia
  • Sexism

These are just some stuff that came to mind, but I trust that people would know what would fall under offensive language.

I think that concludes this suggestion. I believe everyone will be on-board with this suggestion as it is about having a more welcoming community. Please feel free to give your opinions below.

EDIT:

The rule should not cover petty things or be a way to report someone over a little thing, but for outright racism, homophobia, xenophobia, sexism. For petty acts, it would be the same as the current rule where you ask OOCly for them to stop. The last thing I would want is to for people to start report wars over this rule.

 

Edited by tylxrrr
Rule Suggestion Update
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However much I dislike it when people abuse this and just want to be hateful, I don't think this would be a good idea. I would rather have to ask for 'forgiveness' if I took something too far than having to ask for permission in the first place; what you are suggesting is purely restrictive and will damage any organic feel with this kind of RP ,despite your good intentions.

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yeah i agree with this i have witnessed some disgusting behaviour in game and even asked OOC to stop but was ignored. I feel there needs to be a change and have a clear definition of what is acceptable and not malicous and vile language regardless of mature audience. This RP shouldnt be a platform for people to get away with behaving like a racist, i dont see how it is enjoyable. In my own expierence despite the "mature" audience  of the RP, i know and im sure alot will agree that there is plenty of young players in the community and racisim might be shown as acceptable to them if not tolerated which is a bad example to lead by. While there is no proof of the age of some the members its pretty easy to tell that they are of a young age or can hide there voice with an app or using text in game only.

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18 minutes ago, Pegasus_ said:

However much I dislike it when people abuse this and just want to be hateful, I don't think this would be a good idea. I would rather have to ask for 'forgiveness' if I took something too far than having to ask for permission in the first place; what you are suggesting is purely restrictive and will damage any organic feel with this kind of RP ,despite your good intentions.

Even if you are forgiven, depending on how much the comment affected the person, you still may have ruined their experience. I am sure that there are people who do not care about the offensive language and they will be completely fine, but that is not for everyone. To add on that as well, forgiveness is not guaranteed.

I am not completely restricting the RP, you just have to ask in OOC if it is okay to say. This is the same with gross RP and to say the hard R in an offensive manner. "With that said, we want to make it clear that the use of the N-word with a hard "R" meant to be an offensive comment toward another player is considered disgusting roleplay not just offensive language. This means that if you intend to use the word in the offensive manner, or in a manner which is clearly meant to cause shock value on an OOC level, you must gain prior OOC consent from everyone able to witness this." This rule would be simply adding more to what needs OOC consent.

I do agree that it would damage the organic feel though, but I much rather sacrifice organic feel over the possibility of ruining someone's night over something that could've been avoided. I actually logged out after situation because of offensive language before.

If the rule is followed, it almost guarantees that people will not feel like garbage over an offensive language situation due to it being avoided completely.  Even though we have a large player base, it will help with retention rate as well, because I know some people who have left the community due to offensive language situations.

Some things take sacrifices and I definitely believe that someone's feelings is much more important than organic feel.

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30 minutes ago, tylxrrr said:

This rule would be simply adding more to what needs OOC consent.

What I mean is that by having to ask for consent before you can do anything is restricting the organic RP that might have come from any one situation. But I do agree that some people abuse this just to be hateful and then try to play it cool when confronted, just to start over somewhere else.

 

But, in all honesty, if you're affected emotionally that much by talking to someone, then I don't think GTA is the right game for you..

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2 minutes ago, Pegasus_ said:

What I mean is that by having to ask for consent before you can do anything is restricting the organic RP that might have come from any one situation. But I do agree that some people abuse this just to be hateful and then try to play it cool when confronted, just to start over somewhere else.

 

But, in all honesty, if you're affected emotionally that much by talking to someone, then I don't think GTA is the right game for you..

Yeah, it is restricting the organic RP, but it is a sacrifice that should be made. Wouldn't you agree that having a more welcoming community is more important than an organic feeling?

The only word that bothers me personally is the hard R which has already been added to gross RP, so whether or not this rule gets implemented, it won't affect me, but I am looking out for the rest of the community here.

I agree that if you are sensitive that you should not be playing GTA as nothing is really enforced, but you have to realize that I am talking about this specific RP community. In this community, it is very much possible to enforce such a rule. Enforcing this rule would allow for a much more welcoming community which is what I am sure people want.

I just do not see how an organic feeling is more important than having a more welcoming community.

I mean organic feeling has to be restricted in certain aspects besides this such as the power gaming rule. You have to wait for someone to respond to your /me before doing a forceful command which restricts organic role play. However, it is just a sacrifice that has to be made to make sure people don't power game.

In all honesty, this suggested rule is not even as bad as waiting for someone to respond to a /me. You could continue talking to the person as you wait for them to respond to your /pm regarding OOC consent.

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I think it's fine the way it is, but people push it really far for no real reason other than trying to get a rise out of people. For example, there's no reason for someone to pass my police cruiser and shout the "n" word at me as they go by but this happens to me pretty frequently for no reason. At the same time, it's awkward to constantly have to ask people if it's ok to say words like this if for example they're an all-black street gang: people like this naturally talk that way to each other.

As much as I'd like it to stay the same alongside a dose of common sense and courtesy, the fact that it's still a problem means common sense ain't so common after all.

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22 minutes ago, Victor Einhart said:

I think it's fine the way it is, but people push it really far for no real reason other than trying to get a rise out of people. For example, there's no reason for someone to pass my police cruiser and shout the "n" word at me as they go by but this happens to me pretty frequently for no reason. At the same time, it's awkward to constantly have to ask people if it's ok to say words like this if for example they're an all-black street gang: people like this naturally talk that way to each other.

As much as I'd like it to stay the same alongside a dose of common sense and courtesy, the fact that it's still a problem means common sense ain't so common after all.

I probably should've been more specific about this, but I don't mean that you would need OOC consent for like saying the N word without the hard R. That would be quite bad. However, If you want to use slurs in a manner to make someone feel bad or to cause shock then you would need consent. It is more of the way how the words are used which could causes issues. Some words are not even racist or homophobic unless you use it a certain way. Being clearly racist, homophobic, xenophobic, etc is where I think consent should be needed. There shouldn't be petty reports involving this, but more outright offensive language.

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+1 at this point even if you ask ooc they'll say deal with it and continue at it harder. Esp this one girl who RP'd a KKK member. People come here to kind of escape the grim climate we all live in currently, we don't need it here as well.

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6 hours ago, CaesarSeizure said:

I think there is a lack of reports to really justify making rules more strict and the current numbers show that asking people to stop is working enough.

There is a lack of reports as people usually do follow the rule. You cannot report someone for following the rules. However, the problem is with the rule itself. If player A is being racist to player B and player B asks to stop OOCly. The damage is already done whereas if player A asked beforehand, then no damage is done. I would not say the rule is becoming stricter but the way how the rule is executed is changed.

Current Rule:

Offensive Language -> Person cares about the language -> Asks in OOC to stop

Offensive Language -> Person does not care about the language -> Nothing happens

Suggested Rule:

OOC Consent -> Yes -> Offensive Language

OOC Consent -> No -> Nothing happens

When the current rule is followed, there is a 50/50 chance that offensive language bothers them. If it does bother them, then damage is done. 

Essentially, there is a 50% chance that you offend someone with the current rule.

When the suggested rule is followed, there is also a 50/50 chance that offensive language bothers them. However, if the language does bother them, no damage would be done as the situation is prevented.

Essentially, there is a 0% chance that you offend someone with the suggested rule.

Obviously this is in a perfect world where everyone follows the rules, which will not happen. However, rules are usually made with the hope of people following the rules and if you do not, then you are punished.

The suggested rule focuses more on preventive action rather than corrective action. I think preventive action works better with offensive language as this type of language could reach an OOC level. In a perfect world, we would want everyone to keep things as an IC level, but offensive language is more likely to reach an OOC level.

It is the same thing with extreme roleplay. The reason why you need OOC consent is as it may make people feel uncomfortable OOCly. If you are torturing someone ICly without consent, you have already made that person feel uncomfortable. The extreme roleplay rule prevents this from happening. It should be the same with offensive language as offensive language can make people feel uncomfortable OOCly.

Once again, I am sure there are quite a bit of people who do not care. Personally, torture RP does not make me uncomfortable, but I am sure it does to some people.

The percentage of people who do care about offensive language should have the option to opt out of racist RP, homophobic RP, etc just as they do with extreme roleplay.

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Just browsing the forums to get a feel of the player base and this is what I come across.  Honestly, this buttercup sensitivity thing is ruining game based RP.  Don't get me wrong, you won't hear me going around and being a racist prick.  But I'd honestly like to see these servers go with more of a "dont be a dick" rule than this getting permission OOC crap.  Admins need to be tough on this type of behavior.  If someone is going around calling everyone the "n" word or playing an outright racist character, then admins should deal with reports about that players actions appropriately.  But if someone is overly sensitive and complaining because another character is using profanity or said something racist, then maybe they should be asked to move on as this game may not be for them.  This is a fantasy game, set in a criminal world.  People should expect at least some profane behavior and if they can't handle it, then maybe this isn't the game for them.  As an example, in a Red Dead RP I'm currently playing on I was reported for using the word "indian".  Seriously.  Its that bad.  You cannot use the work Indian on this server.  You have to say, "Native American".  Too far in my opinion and it's high time we weed out some of these glass box RP'ers who can't handle at least a LITTLE controversy.  GTA 5 and RDO RP should be edgy and fun... but respectful.  

Sorry OP, don't mean to be rude.  I just greatly disagree.  GTA 5 RP does not have to follow the politics of real life.  Have fun everyone!

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9 hours ago, Terdwillow said:

Just browsing the forums to get a feel of the player base and this is what I come across.  Honestly, this buttercup sensitivity thing is ruining game based RP.  Don't get me wrong, you won't hear me going around and being a racist prick.  But I'd honestly like to see these servers go with more of a "dont be a dick" rule than this getting permission OOC crap.  Admins need to be tough on this type of behavior.  If someone is going around calling everyone the "n" word or playing an outright racist character, then admins should deal with reports about that players actions appropriately.  But if someone is overly sensitive and complaining because another character is using profanity or said something racist, then maybe they should be asked to move on as this game may not be for them.  This is a fantasy game, set in a criminal world.  People should expect at least some profane behavior and if they can't handle it, then maybe this isn't the game for them.  As an example, in a Red Dead RP I'm currently playing on I was reported for using the word "indian".  Seriously.  Its that bad.  You cannot use the work Indian on this server.  You have to say, "Native American".  Too far in my opinion and it's high time we weed out some of these glass box RP'ers who can't handle at least a LITTLE controversy.  GTA 5 and RDO RP should be edgy and fun... but respectful.  

Sorry OP, don't mean to be rude.  I just greatly disagree.  GTA 5 RP does not have to follow the politics of real life.  Have fun everyone!

I agree. I don't want this to be taken lightly or be for petty stuff. It should be for more serious stuff. 

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+1 I think we're all responsible for ensuring that everyone has a good time on the server. I have let a lot of things that have been said slide just because I very rarely get an apology in return and the interactions thereafter turn sour - whether IC or OOC. I've never used slurs myself (whether racist, ableist, xenophobic) so I know this is not a difficult thing to do, therefore I would not be opposed to this rule change. I imagine it would be quite difficult to monitor, but not impossible.

Edited by Lola
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+1

This is a restriction on terms, not on roleplaying a racist. I have had many an interaction on GW where people have been racist towards me without outright saying offensive terms and I've never had an issue with it. Feel like the only time I hear people using terms like stated in this post is purely for shock value and no good roleplayer really uses the terms outright in my experience so far.

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I don't agree with this and I'll explain why, but I should explain that I'm not in any way a minority. I'm a straight, white, adult atheist. I can't think of any kind of slur that I'd feel personally offended by. Any offense I'm going to take is very likely going to be on behalf of others.

I think more than anything, we have to acknowledge that is a role-play server and the video game GTA V is ESRB rated MATURE (17+) and PEGI rated 18.
The N word is said by characters within the game, frequently and almost always in the context of what would commonly be referred to as the soft a, as opposed to the hard r.

While I can agree with some of the valid points raised in this discussion and I can imagine the effect that hearing derogatory words might have on some people. It's hard for me to say I understand because I've never been in that position and likely never will be. That being said, I don't want us to go down the twitch route of having a list of bad words that we cannot say under any circumstances because frankly, it is a roleplay server. 

VOIP roleplay by it's very nature will lead to people saying things they perhaps wouldn't type out. Takes less effort to say something than type at the end of the day. But also, it's worth noting that people do use the term n***a like other people use the term dude or bro, sometimes every other sentence. We can't simply say this community should be for everyone and then vilify people who don't have ill intentions.

If a derogatory comment serves the role-play, then you should be able to say it without asking for permission, as it currently is. But at the same time, if people express that they aren't comfortable with it, similar to ERP then that should be the end of it.

Anyone that is using derogatory slurs out of character with the intention of causing deliberate offence or distress to another community member, whether it's racist, homophobic, xenophobic or any other kind of discriminatory insult should be permanently banned from the community. Anyone using offensive terminology in-character that doesn't stop if asked to in OOC should also be permanently banned. 

An internet gaming community isn't ever going to be a utopian paradise. We come from all walks of life with different backgrounds and different levels of tolerance and understanding for different cultures and practices. We don't have to like each other, but I think we do have to respect each other and our boundaries.

Bottom line is, don't be a cunt.

Edited by Bala
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i do no agree because if you feel an ic insult on an ooc level that mean you not playing a game anymore as you merge into your character and i think that's how peoples become toxic  ooc,  instead of changing rules change mentality and think about it as a game when your character have no shared feeling with you. the current rule should hold fine in my perspective

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