Remove the ability to receive a refund/compensation for people actively involved in criminal activity from accepted forum reports.

[Demonmit1]

Hey look, another controversial forum suggestion. Let's go over why I think this should happen.

Forum reports from players against other players that initiated while being involved in a criminal activity should not have the option for compensation or reimbursement, full stop. No extreme circumstances, nothing. No chance for getting your stuff spawned back in by admins.

Why? You’re intentionally putting yourself in a risky situation, knowing the risks of losing your assets, and going into a situation aware that it could happen. The current “meta” of forum reporting over any fight claiming DM, nonRP, FearRP, ruleplaying, etc, in the hopes you get your report accepted to receive reimbursement of your lost items is a waste of staff members time and fosters a toxic OOC atmosphere. 

By all means, if someone broke a rule, report them for breaking that rule, but if you yourself were actively involved in a criminal activity that initiated the rule break, your options to receive a refund should be removed, as you knew the risks of doing those activities.

The main pro to this point is to reduce the likelihood of a player or a faction mass reporting another player or faction over a gunfight that was lost. A lot of these forum reports come across as petty at best if you take into consideration that they are all initiated by either side during a criminal activity, be it labs, robberies, etc. The current report system encourages these mediocre, petty reports as the chance of getting a refund is worth enough effort to bullshit up a forum report. More often than not, these reports are denied, but the chance they get accepted is worth it to these players to waste staff time to get their stuff back for free.

I had also brought up in the FM 2.0 feedback that faction punishments have not been a thing, and FM staff should be more proactive in moderating official factions for petty reports, but thats a different suggestion at this point.

Pure, random deathmatching wouldn't be covered by this, and would be up to staff interpretation, and with the appeal system, players have an option to escalate if they disagree, so there’s avenues to follow if you disagree with the denial of a refund.

Refunds should overall be restricted to pure, random intentional rulebreaks, glitches, and server issues causing loss. Removing the ability to receive a refund if you make a report on another player / group while you yourself are involved in criminal activity would be a big step towards passively moderating petty reports.

Whats your thoughts?


TL;DR - 

17 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I believe what the OP is trying to say is the situations where player(s) lose a gunfight and report the situation under the guise of several rulebreaks (DM, FRP, NRP, etc)...basically throwing all of it at the wall and see what sticks in hopes of getting a refund request rather than due to the fact that there was or was not actual rule breaks. Basically those situations where people wouldn't have bothered reporting had they won the gunfight, but they only reported because they lost due to losing assets. 

Requiem summed up the intent really well, better than I explained in the post above. This TL:DR better explains the intent of what I was going for.

2 minutes ago, Requiem said:

there may be other solutions that could also be put in place to combat some of the "report culture" we sometimes see.

This is the goal, to fight against the current "report culture" and this suggestion is a potential solution towards that.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[SquirtleSquad]

-1

If a player report is accepted, there are a lot of reasons that are taken into consideration regarding its acceptance. The reason for refunds is that the outcome of the roleplay was disturbed in a way in which the result caused said player(s) to lose out on assets they would have otherwise kept following the conclusion of the roleplay scenario. I don't see the need to deny (a) player(s) of their assets following the conclusion of what is an accepted and valid rule break.

[Jordan]

-1, Personally as a long time crim on the server I'd have to fully and completely disagree. The refund system can be abused yes, but needless to say staff does everything within their power to make sure its not. Regardless whether or not this change were to be made it would cause a circus of other issues.

If you are a crim, and you go down to a lab and someone is hacking and DMing and shoots you through a wall, kills you with no escalation etc, and you lose your guns, your equipment and your drugs all because someone decided that they were above the rules, you have to face the consequences for something that should've never happened in the first place. I understand what you mean by saying "You accept the consequences" however this is irrelevant given the fact in some cases its completely out of their power to do anything but. Its unreasonable to assume everyone on the server reports to make a refund request. In my experience a lot of "petty reports" made by factions happen in hopes of the faction getting punished instead of getting a refund. I feel as if removing the ability to make a refund request as a crim to get your stuff back that you lost due to a rulebreak wouldnt help the issue of petty reports in the slightest, because ultimately "Petty reports" are made for a variety of reasons and I for one dont believe they are made for a refund request to get accepted. Some maybe, sure but for the most part I've seen gangs lose a singular .50, I refuse to believe someone would make a report in hopes of getting back 1 .50 when they have an armory in their stash house.

Additionally, i'd like to comment by saying: Staff deals with reports daily, and even if a report is made to get a refund request accepted, and it does whats the harm exactly? Why wouldn't they be given their stuff back? It does no harm to the game, the community of the server either because ultimately that crim is gonna stay crim and they're gonna get their things back at some point regardless of a refund request. The only thing taking away refunds from crims would do is harbor harsh feelings toward staff for taking away something thats been in the server for a long time.

I understand where you're coming from but I really dont think this (should it be implemented) would do anything good for the community, but thats just my personal take on the matter.

 

[Dred]

-1 

I fail to understand the point of this. It feels unnecessarily driving a wedge between staff and players who expect to trust staff to enforce broken rules. 

Just because you're a criminal doing dangerous activities you deserve to lose on assets you would've kept if the roleplay situation was properly played out?  That means if John Bob walks in. Guns down and outright death matches Billy Jim he gets to keep Billy's 100AP and AK and whatever else and just take a deathmatching punishment and Billy is just told "lol don't be a crim. Sorry you lost your stuff do less dangerous activities" why is he not allowed to get compensation for having server rules broken against him?

The whole reports feel petty comment is just out of left field. You're absolutely allowed to feel a certain way reading over the reports. It's up to staff to decide the validity and appropriate course of action in terms of server rules. It's why they follow their Staff Master Policy.

[Diligo]

everybody saying -1 but then let's meet in the middle

if the reporting party accomplishes not a major rulebreak punishment but more so just an educational route or a verbal warning to the reported party, then the reporting party can not ask for a refund. Or at least a whole refund.

Because if it was just poor roleplay but not enough to earn a punishment for, then basically seems that mistakes happen and why we should refund reporting party because of a small mistake?
Reporting party should also acknowledge that it is just a small mistake and take the L and not ask for a refund

+1 to this or at least let`s meet in the middle:

Refund should fit the punishment

[Demonmit1]

17 minutes ago, Jordan said:

go down to a lab and someone is hacking and DMing and shoots you through a wall

fair, an accepted cheating report should be an extreme circumstance for refund. they're few and far between, and are a big enough break to justify a complete refund.

 

20 minutes ago, SquirtleSquad said:

The reason for refunds is that the outcome of the roleplay was disturbed

I guess this ends up being a matter of opinion. with my "remove public labs" suggestion, a lot of people agreed that there is no roleplay happening at labs, so what roleplay is being disturbed? 99.99% of labs interaction is someone grinding money, and someone rolling labs to steal from people grinding money. 

 

12 minutes ago, Dred said:

Jim he gets to keep Billy's 100AP and AK and whatever else and just take a deathmatching punishment

are staff not removing assets from people who broke rules to gain those assets? that in itself should be a problem then. 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Diligo]

5 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

are staff not removing assets from people who broke rules to gain those assets? that in itself should be a problem then. 

that is so true, i know some people who got some guns after a fight, which ended up as a rulebreak, sat out a couple of days because of the DM ban but still had those acquired guns on them.
Ofcourse they later appealed their DM punishment and it got revoked and also not all of the times people recieve punishment for a rulebreak immediately so people have a couple of days at least to use the acquired guns before recieving punishment.
Also people have the ability to lose them guns before recieving punishment so that is why i guess staf doesnt delete the reported party`s acquired guns from their inventory if report is accepted.

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Nikolia
wording

[Dred]

3 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

are staff not removing assets from people who broke rules to gain those assets? that in itself should be a problem then. 

I'm not staff but if you're asking questions like that. You're nullifying half of your original topic and should see if that's a case staff is doing. Finding out more information on how they're handled and what happens in the entireity of a refund request seems it should be crucial to this post versus saying "hey make it harder to get a refund for items you lost"

 

It still doesn't negate the fact that this entire thing, no offense, just makes no sense. It's on the grounds of "lol don't be a crim or don't do bad stuff. Sorry you lost to rule breakers and lost stuff you grinded for". 

If you have the questions like you asked me on how staff handles them. Seek out staff and actively get all the information of how punishment and refund requests tie together and maybe re write this post because it truly just feels like taking aim at people who unfairly lost should just suck it don't do bad activities in the server. 

[SquirtleSquad]

6 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

23 minutes ago, SquirtleSquad said:

The reason for refunds is that the outcome of the roleplay was disturbed

I guess this ends up being a matter of opinion. with my "remove public labs" suggestion, a lot of people agreed that there is no roleplay happening at labs, so what roleplay is being disturbed? 99.99% of labs interaction is someone grinding money, and someone rolling labs to steal from people grinding money. 

I believe this to be a misunderstanding of the definition of roleplay. An instance of interactions is considered roleplay, thus interacting with players, whether being robbed, picking and/or cooking together is roleplay. Roleplay is not 2-dimensional for interpretation, and thus why the Server rules have a bit more of a grey area to them. It is also why each report is reviewed on a one-off basis, and rarely compared to another situation. Each one is dynamic and fluid, and individuals breaching things like FearRP, violating NLR, driving up the cliffs of Chili in their Comet Retro are viewed individually. Your statement of "remove public labs because no RP" statement isn't relevant to this situation as you are cherry picking my statement and applying it to merely a single situation.

Your suggestion hinders that more of lower tier'd factions, or solo crims more than it does punishing higher tier'd gangs. I understand why you're making this suggestion, as Tier 4+ gangs are making refund requests when a lot of times the losses are seen as negligible, however, in the overall larger picture, this ends up hurting more of the community than it does helping them.

Additionally, refunds are reviewed on a per-case basis, and regarding them from reports, if the situation voided due to the rule break is accepted, then the refund can be applied for. Per one of our bullet point guidelines "A forum report in which admins have deemed necessary that a player deserves to be refunded. A link to the concluded report must be provided in the refund request."

However, this is all my opinion and not that of the entirety of the Staff.

[Demonmit1]

27 minutes ago, Dred said:

If you have the questions like you asked me on how staff handles them

That's why I replied in a single post with two staff members getting notifications of it. The question wasn't directed specifically at you and only you. 

 

27 minutes ago, Dred said:

"lol don't be a crim or don't do bad stuff. Sorry you lost to rule breakers and lost stuff you grinded for". 

The point isn't to force people to not be crim. The point is to reduce petty, toxic forum reports made by players against other players in the hopes of getting a refund. 

A lot of forum reports end up being made in the hopes of getting assets spawned in as compensation because they lost, not because a rule was broken. if they had won the fight, the report would not have been made in MANY cases. The compensation system encourages these types of reports. A blanket, " you can't be refunded assets if you're actively involved in a criminal activity" statement would likely heavily reduce petty reports.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Eliza]

Alright, so let’s say you’re at a lab doing your thing, and some dude rolls up cheating, like full on aimbot, no question kind of cheating, and absolutely wipes the floor with you. You report it, staff punishes them, and under this suggestion, you’re just… out of luck? No refund, no compensation, nothing. How is that fair?

Look, being involved in criminal activity doesn’t mean you signed up to get screwed over by someone blatantly breaking the rules. There’s a difference between taking an in-game risk and losing to someone who’s playing dirty (and I don’t mean in-character dirty, I mean actual, rule-breaking dirty).

This suggestion feels like it’s punishing people for reporting legitimate issues because, what, they dared to play the game in a risky way? What’s next? “Sorry, you can’t report that guy for exploiting because you should’ve known better than to leave your house?” Come on.

[Dred]

Again, 

Without knowing how staff operates on an internal understanding. This post does not read as what you're asking at all. At the end of the day. Reports aren't just going to "stop" or honestly, from seeing numerous communities and this one too, lessen at all. People report broken rules. Staff view it as broken rules not asset loss. The reports in of themselves are to be labeled petty by the staff handling of which you and I are not.  Groups and players are going to report other groups and players regardless of asset loss I promise you. 

Can you prove that people are reporting for asset loss? Is there a way you can show it with undeniable proof? Because even denied reports. You can see pretty well where they were coming from assuming rules may have been broken. 

You can have the assumption people report for loss of items only. And you know what? Is it actually petty if you spent weeks grinding as a solo crim or whatever for 85k worth of stuff just for some big group to steamroller you and break rules and take your stuff and nulifiy what you grinded for?

I'm a big preacher of roleplay over assets. But again without the ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL information on how staff actually handles reports and refund requests all this reads as, to me, is "don't do bad activities and risk stuff even if you lose it to rule breakers you shouldn't have been there." 

Edited December 19, 2024 by Dred

[Requiem]

2 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

Alright, so let’s say you’re at a lab doing your thing, and some dude rolls up cheating, like full on aimbot, no question kind of cheating, and absolutely wipes the floor with you. You report it, staff punishes them, and under this suggestion, you’re just… out of luck? No refund, no compensation, nothing. How is that fair?

Look, being involved in criminal activity doesn’t mean you signed up to get screwed over by someone blatantly breaking the rules. There’s a difference between taking an in-game risk and losing to someone who’s playing dirty (and I don’t mean in-character dirty, I mean actual, rule-breaking dirty).

This suggestion feels like it’s punishing people for reporting legitimate issues because, what, they dared to play the game in a risky way? What’s next? “Sorry, you can’t report that guy for exploiting because you should’ve known better than to leave your house?” Come on.

I think this is the extreme edge case of the suggestion, and I don't believe the intent of the suggestion would apply to this kind of situation. I am sure cheaters/exploits would be an exception to allow a refund request. I believe what the OP is trying to say is the situations where player(s) lose a gunfight and report the situation under the guise of several rulebreaks (DM, FRP, NRP, etc)...basically throwing all of it at the wall and see what sticks in hopes of getting a refund request rather than due to the fact that there was or was not actual rule breaks. Basically those situations where people wouldn't have bothered reporting had they won the gunfight, but they only reported because they lost due to losing assets. 

[Demonmit1]

2 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

dude rolls up cheating, like full on aimbot, no question kind of cheating, and absolutely wipes the floor with you

 

26 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

41 minutes ago, Jordan said:

go down to a lab and someone is hacking and DMing and shoots you through a wall

fair, an accepted cheating report should be an extreme circumstance for refund. they're few and far between, and are a big enough break to justify a complete refund

Valid concern and I agree with y'all on that. 

 

3 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

This suggestion feels like it’s punishing people for reporting legitimate issues

What's the punishment for reporting? I don't understand how there is a perceived punishment for reporting someone in what I've said. 

[Demonmit1]

2 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I believe what the OP is trying to say is the situations where player(s) lose a gunfight and report the situation under the guise of several rulebreaks (DM, FRP, NRP, etc)...basically throwing all of it at the wall and see what sticks in hopes of getting a refund request rather than due to the fact that there was or was not actual rule breaks. Basically those situations where people wouldn't have bothered reporting had they won the gunfight, but they only reported because they lost due to losing assets. 

Nailed it. Can I copy this and put it in the original post? Lol

[Requiem]

I will addon to what I mentioned above by saying I am not necessarily in support of or against this suggestion...I will abstain from that. I will say though I see both sides of this. I think it would be foolish/ignorant to believe that some players don't report purely due to losing their assets or trying to get opposing factions/groups punished when they are upset due to a loss. But this is not always the case, as there are also many situations where players did in fact experience a rulebreak and may have reported the situation regardless.

Is our current report system perfect? Absolutely not. Has it worked for the most part for the past few years? Sure, most of the time, at least in regards to how staff review rulebreaks, and I think it would be hard to find a better solution given the systems and processes available. 

The current solution to the issue of players reporting for poor reasons is allow the current system of punishing for petty reports to work as designed to minimize these issues. But there may be other solutions that could also be put in place to combat some of the "report culture" we sometimes see. 

[Eliza]

16 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I think this is the extreme edge case of the suggestion, and I don't believe the intent of the suggestion would apply to this kind of situation. I am sure cheaters/exploits would be an exception to allow a refund request. I believe what the OP is trying to say is the situations where player(s) lose a gunfight and report the situation under the guise of several rulebreaks (DM, FRP, NRP, etc)...basically throwing all of it at the wall and see what sticks in hopes of getting a refund request rather than due to the fact that there was or was not actual rule breaks. Basically those situations where people wouldn't have bothered reporting had they won the gunfight, but they only reported because they lost due to losing assets. 

How do you propose determining, without a shadow of a doubt, that a report was made solely to get assets back? Motivation isn’t something you can always measure objectively, and it feels risky to make assumptions about why someone filed a report. If there’s no concrete way to prove intent, this suggestion could lead to valid refund requests that stemmed from a report being disregarded based on perceived motivations rather than the actual facts of the situation. Doesn’t that open the door to more issues than it solves?

 

17 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

What's the punishment for reporting? I don't understand how there is a perceived punishment for reporting someone in what I've said. 

I’m not saying there’s a direct punishment for reporting, but by removing the possibility of refunds in criminal situations, you’re essentially discouraging people from making legitimate reports. The issue is that intent can’t always be proven. How do you definitively determine whether someone reported because they were upset about losing assets or because there was an actual rule break?

[Demonmit1]

3 minutes ago, Requiem said:

But there may be other solutions that could also be put in place to combat some of the "report culture" we sometimes see. 

This is the goal, to fight against the current "report culture" and this suggestion is a potential solution towards that, and people can discuss from there about the pros and cons i couldnt think of up front.

[Demonmit1]

3 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

Motivation isn’t something you can always measure objectively, and it feels risky to make assumptions about why someone filed a report

3 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

The issue is that intent can’t always be proven. How do you definitively determine whether someone reported because they were upset about losing assets or because there was an actual rule break?

which is why the suggestion of a blanket statement of, "you wont get a refund on assets if you were actively involved in criminal activities" is a way to remove any subjective part of it, no assumptions required, no need for proof of intent of the report. 

A report should be made for a rulebreak, not because someone lost a fight. having that blanket rule with the option to appeal would ensure the intent up front is to combat the rulebreak, not throwing the laundry list of rules at someone hoping something sticks so you can get your stuff back for free.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Jordan]

1 hour ago, Nikolia said:

everybody saying -1 but then let's meet in the middle

if the reporting party accomplishes not a major rulebreak punishment but more so just an educational route or a verbal warning to the reported party, then the reporting party can not ask for a refund. Or at least a whole refund.

Because if it was just poor roleplay but not enough to earn a punishment for, then basically seems that mistakes happen and why we should refund reporting party because of a small mistake?
Reporting party should also acknowledge that it is just a small mistake and take the L and not ask for a refund

+1 to this or at least let`s meet in the middle:

Again have to disagree, if a player was wronged, I see no reason as to why they shouldnt get a refund. It doesn't help the situation of "Petty Reports" In the slightest, and therefore theres no reason for it.

[Jordan]

23 minutes ago, Requiem said:

I will addon to what I mentioned above by saying I am not necessarily in support of or against this suggestion...I will abstain from that. I will say though I see both sides of this. I think it would be foolish/ignorant to believe that some players don't report purely due to losing their assets or trying to get opposing factions/groups punished when they are upset due to a loss. But this is not always the case, as there are also many situations where players did in fact experience a rulebreak and may have reported the situation regardless.

Is our current report system perfect? Absolutely not. Has it worked for the most part for the past few years? Sure, most of the time, at least in regards to how staff review rulebreaks, and I think it would be hard to find a better solution given the systems and processes available. 

The current solution to the issue of players reporting for poor reasons is allow the current system of punishing for petty reports to work as designed to minimize these issues. But there may be other solutions that could also be put in place to combat some of the "report culture" we sometimes see. 

Yeah I can somewhat agree like I said in my original response, I don't doubt it doesn't happen but I reckon those are few and far between considering what I personally know about the petty reports (its something I spoke about in FM 2.0 Feedback aswell) I dont think these happen nearly enough to say that Refund Requests are the root of the problem when more often than not a lot of reports that are considered "petty" seemingly come from a different goal.

[Clank]

2 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

A report should be made for a rulebreak, not because someone lost a fight. having that blanket rule with the option to appeal would ensure the intent up front is to combat the rulebreak, not throwing the laundry list of rules at someone hoping something sticks so you can get your stuff back for free.

People aren't ready for that conversation yet. Too much gear fear on an RP server.

[Diligo]

4 hours ago, Jordan said:

Again have to disagree, if a player was wronged, I see no reason as to why they shouldnt get a refund. It doesn't help the situation of "Petty Reports" In the slightest, and therefore theres no reason for it.

Idk maybe my english is horrendous but that is not all I said

player A breaks rule/-s against player B
player B loses the RP situation
player B reports
staff review all evidence and conclude:
1)player A gets real big punishment - player B gets full refund 
2)player A gets no punishment - no player B refund
3)player A gets minor punishment(warning/spoken to) - no player B refund or idk maximum 5k$ worth of stuff

Everyone who checks the reports sees when reports are getting accepted THOUGH the reported party is only getting the educational route. And the reporting party happilly stroll to refund requests section to get their 60k$ worth of stuff back.
If the rulebreak is so minor that you just need to tell them `no-no cant do that! ok?` then it is not that serious of a rulebreak.

And if it is not that serious, then why anyone would get serious refunds?

Refund should fit the punishment!!

[Quietthecutie]

I can definitely see where the motivation for this suggestion is coming from, and it is a good point that a lot of people probably wouldn't bother pushing certain reports if their gear was lost either way.  talking about the edge cases, the 50/50s, the poor judgement calls in the heat of the moment rather than just blatant rule breaks. The suggestion makes the most sense in that framing.

That said I still believe its more important that people who were genuinely wronged do have the right to get refunded.

I don't believe the "meet in the middle" approach would work. Its too subjective and vague. one set of mods might review a report and come to a conclusion that the person gets a refund, another might disagree. it might even affect their decision making process on the rule break punishment which should never happen. it would add another layer of complexity onto the reports system and would actually end up making them take longer to decide on because of it.

Therefore I see no way to implement this suggestion fairly.

 

[Ritchie Stones]

-1 you have no idea of the ripple effect on this, if you where wronged with no refund you would eventualy become that reckless aswel,  because why care about justice when there is none… the deep rooted resentment will grow to full blown hatred in the server, 

also if you think report culture is still a thing you should have withness the server 4 years ago, that was WILD! It has actualy calmed down by at least 10 times, i remember +-10 to 15 reports a day,