PD & SD - Detective and SIB change

[John Nut]

For a long time I have noticed multiple undercover PD and SD SIB/Detectives running around with heavy weaponry, AP's and such crim baiting and doing alot of wierd stuff. After some thought to it I came with the thought that this makes no sense at all. 

Detectives in real life dont go running around with big Swat vests and ak's with scopes and shit.  they simply go undercover and gather information and or attempts to infiltrate gangs/orgs so they can arrest and give people/orgs charges to be placed in jail. 

There has been way to many situations where detectives dress up with 150-200 ap, ak with scopes and or other typical crim heavy weapons, going to gangs and baiting them to be chased and or given demands to, with the most normal excuse " I was investigating"  The moment demands has been given Swat is around the corner smoking the criminals in seconds with an ambush and or chase.  This is highly unrealistic in my opinion and a way to make detectives act like realistic detectives is to strip them from all heavy weaponry, vests and simply give them the ability to trace, go undercover with all kinds of vehicles and a pistol of their choice. By limiting their armor and guns it creates a more realistic enviroment within the department where they should value their life as they are putting themself in high danger by going alone to highly dangerous orgs.      

I have also realised multiple situations where detectives and SIB act like Swat/SED running in not valuing their life at all and doing stuff that Swat/SED should do ALONE and not with the help of fight hungry detectives.   Swat/SED should be the only people will such heavy weaponry as its what their department is made for, high risk situations.  While detectives are for gathering information and infiltrating orgs to prosecute them, not smoke them.    I am a supervisor within SED/SWAT and have been a LEO for a long time at this point, so I have seen this from both my SED character and my crim character. 

 

I would like to see others opinion on this and I am not stating EVERYONE does this, but it has happened and a bit too often to what I think should be normal. 

[Ash]

I really don’t get into either side of these situations so I’m only gonna comment on one part that seemed odd:

You say ‘crim baiting’ but how does that work? Cop baiting is a thing because cops *have* to respond to crime, but it doesn’t quite work the other way around right? Can’t people just not take the bait by attacking or chasing them?

[John Nut]

17 minutes ago, Ash said:

I really don’t get into either side of these situations so I’m only gonna comment on one part that seemed odd:

You say ‘crim baiting’ but how does that work? Cop baiting is a thing because cops *have* to respond to crime, but it doesn’t quite work the other way around right? Can’t people just not take the bait by attacking or chasing them?

One typical scenario is when undercover detectives puts an ak 47 with attatchments on his back with a black AP, driving into gangs HQ's and or areas or operation, shit talking them to bait them to react and give demands. once demands are given the gang gets completely wiped out by 5 other detectives and swat teams who has been called by the detective after making the crims angry to the point demands are imminant.    

Other typical ways of crim baiting typically done by any LEO in any departments can be "step out the vehicle"  for no apparent reason to bait and hope they get scared and evade, basically doing it with a malicious intent.  and this does not come from me thinking people do it, people have confirmed to me they do it.   Just to give a more "normal" example of crim baiting,  but the post is intended to give a new idea for what detectives truly should be in my opinion, and hear others opinion on it.    I think its highly unrealistic for detectives to roll in like swat teams and doing crazy shit

At this state Detectives and SIB have a free for all match with all crims.  they can do almost whatever they want, go wherever they want, use whatever they want with bare to none consequenses.  while the crims have an insane consequense by the detectives reckless behavior/playstyle/freedom

To put a question back to your question "Can’t people just not take the bait by attacking or chasing them?"    if a solo crim comes up to a gang with 5+ people talking shit, the gang will chase the person and try and "give him a lesson"   but it makes no sense when a cop is going to those 5+ known gang members, just to talk shit and bait them into a fight. 

 

 

Edited February 15 by John Nut

[Ash]

In both scenarios it just seems stupid to give demands or evade if it’s so obvious what they’re doing? If they didn’t react then there’d be no consequences surely?

People striving for better realism is a good thing, absolutely not criticising the main parts of your post, I just think the part of them baiting isn’t really on LEOs for attempting it as much as it is criminals for falling for pretty basic entrapment.

[GR_Seb]

1 hour ago, John Nut said:

Detectives in real life they simply go undercover and gather information and or attempts to infiltrate gangs/orgs so they can arrest and give people/orgs charges to be placed in jail. 

And our gangs require you to join their discord before you become a member. But we don't talk about that do we?  In my opinion, detectives are doing a great job.

[John Nut]

6 minutes ago, GR_Seb said:

And our gangs require you to join their discord before you become a member. But we don't talk about that do we?  In my opinion, detectives are doing a great job.

True you cant join a discord,, but that is no excuse to baiting fights and reactions for a fight with heavy weapons.     Im not SHITTING on detectives detectives are doing a great job, im simply comming up with an idea that will remove this wierd "clapping mentality" that most detectives now have.   Makes no sense for them to be as or even more heavily armed than Swat and SED itself.       Detectives should be limited to pistols, specially when undercover and no vests at all and if you have vests, they should be small vests, not bigger than regular GOB units. 

 

Edited February 15 by John Nut

[Astrx]

Being a PD Detective I am going to try to explain this.

Going undercover as a Detective to simply get information is one of the hardest things to do. We don't have much to our disposal, when we go undercover there are a lot of things you need to take into consideration before doing so. when doing so, you need to take into account: Vehicle, clothing, weapons etc. Crims on this server are VERY asset and meta orientated, if you aren't driving a meta vehicle such as: paragon, jugular, rapid GT, drag etc etc, you are easily spotted. If you carry around the wrong weapon you are spotted I have been undercover before with a carbine which crims are also known to have and crims come up to you and call on the radio "hahaha look at these dumb ass detectives with their MKII's", this happens a lot. If you dress in the wrong way you can be spotted as crims have a certain way of dressing that stands them out.

In regards to weapons and armour, this is really needed, crims 90% of the time are carrying weapons and around 30% of those are heavies such as pumps and AK's, and if we were to go undercover the "conventional" way we would simply get obliterated as a lot of the crim community are of course good at PvP as this is a main thing they do as opposed to LEO. If you're going to compare PD to IRL and that we need to act more like they do in real life then criminals should too and that would be horrendous.

Criminals IRL for the charges that get given here will never see sunlight again, they wouldn't win as much as they do here, crims wouldn't just be able to gang hop as much as they do here because IRL there is gang loyalty which is simply none existent here.

I am not looking to argue or anything as all discussions are valid but before going at one side of the server also try to understand it fully and then look at your side too. Most of these discussions are made without even knowing how the complained topic even is, so unless you've been a Detective fully on Eclipse I would refrain from really saying what is silly and what isn't.

[John Nut]

58 minutes ago, Astrx said:

Being a PD Detective I am going to try to explain this.

Going undercover as a Detective to simply get information is one of the hardest things to do. We don't have much to our disposal, when we go undercover there are a lot of things you need to take into consideration before doing so. when doing so, you need to take into account: Vehicle, clothing, weapons etc. Crims on this server are VERY asset and meta orientated, if you aren't driving a meta vehicle such as: paragon, jugular, rapid GT, drag etc etc, you are easily spotted. If you carry around the wrong weapon you are spotted I have been undercover before with a carbine which crims are also known to have and crims come up to you and call on the radio "hahaha look at these dumb ass detectives with their MKII's", this happens a lot. If you dress in the wrong way you can be spotted as crims have a certain way of dressing that stands them out.

In regards to weapons and armour, this is really needed, crims 90% of the time are carrying weapons and around 30% of those are heavies such as pumps and AK's, and if we were to go undercover the "conventional" way we would simply get obliterated as a lot of the crim community are of course good at PvP as this is a main thing they do as opposed to LEO. If you're going to compare PD to IRL and that we need to act more like they do in real life then criminals should too and that would be horrendous.

Criminals IRL for the charges that get given here will never see sunlight again, they wouldn't win as much as they do here, crims wouldn't just be able to gang hop as much as they do here because IRL there is gang loyalty which is simply none existent here.

I am not looking to argue or anything as all discussions are valid but before going at one side of the server also try to understand it fully and then look at your side too. Most of these discussions are made without even knowing how the complained topic even is, so unless you've been a Detective fully on Eclipse I would refrain from really saying what is silly and what isn't.

I dont see why you would need an AK to prove you are crim.  A pistol 50. with a silencer should be more than enough if you are behaving like a crim.  If you are rolling around with an AK or an Pistol 50. shouldnt really make any difference.   yes if you go around with an SNS pistol it would be more obviouse, but then use a pistol 50. with a silencer like everybody else.  Crims dont often use Carbine mk11 and it is also known as a LEO weapon.  so any strangers carrying that weapon will instantly be suspected to be a detective. So that was perhaps not the smartes weapon to use. 

I also constantly hear and see detectives be on gangs freqs all the time, this is good information. Countless times I have been called in by SIB and Detectives because they are on gang freqs. I have raided countless houses that SIB/detectives has found through freqs and being undercover.  this is what a detective should do,  not run into a gang bang with an ak and AP shit talking them trying to get a reaction.    

 

Detectives should be able to drive any civillian vehicle to fit in, and use any clothes.  But having countless heavy weapons to the point they almost outgun SED/SWAT is the main thing I think is wrong and because I personally feel alot of detectives/SIB's are using this to their advantage by as mentioned Crim baiting. It should be considered being removed.  In my opinion.

Edited February 15 by John Nut

[man on the moon]

this is more about the player mentality rather than the equipment at disposal

if someone does this, they should be reported as per IC or OOC means respectively. I see LEO factions pushing means to avoid these situations all the time.

[Wildablaze]

I'm with my boy John here, I have too many times encountered cops actually rolling labs looking for fights, they have Compacts which are know as a criminal gun with Metros Armour. I don't get why they are rolling labs in the first place, but somethings got to change. Its not about cops being realistic. Its about being fair and reasonable. Rolling labs with criminal guns attempting to instigate a fight then zerging the lab is not fun for crims and shouldn't even be happening as cops "shouldn't know where labs are" - yet camp them and roll them

Seeing both sides once being in Metro and now crim, its obvious cops do get hungry which is understandable at times but ruining others rp isn't. 

On the other note, I have seen some really great detective work in the past, for example Johnathon Willowick.

But to further Johns point here's some actual evidence below, I have countless clips of cops rolling labs with no intent and just checking around before leaving.


- Clapping mentality - https://streamable.com/xjtngu
- Crying after rolling labs and getting smoked - https://streamable.com/scxv2z

[Astrx]

9 minutes ago, Wildablaze said:

- Clapping mentality - https://streamable.com/xjtngu

This isn't a clapping mentality, this a compilation of clips over months of time which was PD reacting to force used against them. This is one video compared to hundreds of videos from the criminal side of the community, so stating "clapper mentality" is silly.

 

9 minutes ago, Wildablaze said:

- Crying after rolling labs and getting smoked - https://streamable.com/scxv2z

The text used here is extremely toxic and unnecessary, stating "Crying after rolling labs and getting smoked" is stupid. This being my clip, we had genuine intel and we went in there to investigate a crime (which is out job) whilst it was just us we had weaponry to back us up in case things went south, the overall baiting from the faction before hand was bad and then straight up shooting and deathmatching shows more of a "clapper mentality" than PD. This wasn't us "crying" it was us reporting an actual rule breach as does everyone else.

[John Nut]

4 minutes ago, Astrx said:

This isn't a clapping mentality, this a compilation of clips over months of time which was PD reacting to force used against them. This is one video compared to hundreds of videos from the criminal side of the community, so stating "clapper mentality" is silly.

 

The text used here is extremely toxic and unnecessary, stating "Crying after rolling labs and getting smoked" is stupid. This being my clip, we had genuine intel and we went in there to investigate a crime (which is out job) whilst it was just us we had weaponry to back us up in case things went south, the overall baiting from the faction before hand was bad and then straight up shooting and deathmatching shows more of a "clapper mentality" than PD. This wasn't us "crying" it was us reporting an actual rule breach as does everyone else.

I agree with all this, but the one question I have and where I do dissagree. 

if you are investigating an area, why are you entering with heeavy weaponry. isnt dressing like a crim with a pistol enough, and then let SWAT take care of the situation instead of detectives that then starting blasting 10+ crims before swat moves in.   (not saying you did it in this clip, but is what typically happens)   You go in undercover and investigate, why use crazy crim weapons.      I didnt make this thread to trash on detectives, they are doing a really good job, but there is alot of situations and alot of people taking their privelages for granted and using it to their advantage.   In my opinion as shown in the clip where you entered sealab, what I feel would be more right is. Use that car or whatever civ car you want, whatever clothes you want and a pistol 50.   

If you get put under gunpoint, which is one of the risks you need to deal with while being undercover, you have SED and or Swat right nearby ready to move in, snipers in helicopters or already positioned somewhere with a view.  I see no reason for detectives to be wearing weapons such as this even tho you are going into a lab investigating.  That is the point im trying to share

 

 

[HobGoblin]

This thread is coming from zero knowledge of the internal work of detectives and their protocols.

I can’t speak on SIB as they are another department. Iv been a detective for long enough to know that people don’t just go undercover to bait fights but do go undercover for many reasons and always have an objective in mind.

There are IC protocols and reasons for certain weapons to be used. There are situations where guns are needed as plan B, just as in life you should always expect the worse and be prepared. 

Like always you only see whats going on from your perspective. You dont see the planning, tac communication between DB and METRO. You don’t know the full reason we do things and im not going to sit down and explain everything to you. I can only speak for myself but each time guns are needed and we know that METRO is called and is ready to respond.

Labs have been mentioned a few times here. Each time we go to a lab its for an IC reason with supported backup.

As always if you have a situation that you feel isn’t right you can make an IA report OOC and it will be investigated each time. 

@John Nut I see you mention you have seen these issues from your SED character. I hate to say it but DB and METRO have a good standing IC and they are called all the time to assist. If SED aren’t being called to help SIB thats an internal issue and doesn’t represent every department. 

Edited February 15 by HobGoblin

[John Nut]

51 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

This thread is coming from zero knowledge of the internal work of detectives and their protocols.

I can’t speak on SIB as they are another department. Iv been a detective for long enough to know that people don’t just go undercover to bait fights but do go undercover for many reasons and always have an objective in mind.

There are IC protocols and reasons for certain weapons to be used. There are situations where guns are needed as plan B, just as in life you should always expect the worse and be prepared. 

Like always you only see whats going on from your perspective. You dont see the planning, tac communication between DB and METRO. You don’t know the full reason we do things and im not going to sit down and explain everything to you. I can only speak for myself but each time guns are needed and we know that METRO is called and is ready to respond.

Labs have been mentioned a few times here. Each time we go to a lab its for an IC reason with supported backup.

As always if you have a situation that you feel isn’t right you can make an IA report OOC and it will be investigated each time. 

@John Nut I see you mention you have seen these issues from your SED character. I hate to say it but DB and METRO have a good standing IC and they are called all the time to assist. If SED aren’t being called to help SIB thats an internal issue and doesn’t represent every department. 

I never mentioned SED or Swat didnt get called for situations. I said Detectives often run face first into danger with heavy weapons pretending to be Swat or SED AND THEN calling Swat and SED. Shoot first, scream code 1  

I have been a LEO and crim long enough to know what baiting and investigating is, there has been multiple situations where detectives have been tracing, investigating and tailing people, but they end up putting an AK and AP on, going to a gang talking shit to get a reaction that eventually turns into crims giving demands and then the entire police force shooting them down. Im not saying this happens everyday, but it happens often enough.   

As mentioned in the last response, I am not saying to remove undercover etc etc. Im saying that this mentality where detectives roll into gangs HQ feeling invinsible with heavies, not caring properly for their life, talking shit to get a reaction that then most likely will turn into demands or chase. 

Detectives dont need heavies to do detective work. Leave the heavy work for the departments who deals with it.   Detectives shouldnt AS ARMED as Swat or SED.

This is both SIB and PD detectives, not just one of them. I personally see it much more with PD if we need to be specific.  I do still see some detectives on and undercover wearing no vests or a regular vest just like any other GOB and not using the heavy weapons.  That is what my idea is about.     

 

Long story short, my opinion is that I dont think detectives should be armed to their teeths.

Thats what my idea/discussion/idea is. nothing else.

[addybeta]

This comes back to the fact that Crim RP is becoming nearly unplayable right now. I am not sure of the OOC rules that have been placed with the new update, but what I've been told is that LEO's can "Randomly" stumble upon labs now. If this is true then it makes no sense at all, since everyone OOCly know's where all the labs are. I have recently returned to crim RP after a long time of LEO RP with my character in SD and I have to say that the 2 times I have been at a lab, PD have just rolled through it. Now I dont know if this was done "randomly" or someone made a 911 call or detectives were just undercover in the area. 

As for the "Crim baiting". This is a thing that a lot of LEO characters do. It's like John said, it can be to order someone out of their car to scare them and make them evade, since you OOCly know they have a gun inside. Or it can be beefing people inside a lab while undercover. The point being, crim baiting is very common and happens daily. 
 

Another thing I have noticed is since there are no NPC's in Eclipse, whenever there is an increase in cars driving around a lab, Cops just place themselves near the lab, because they OOCly know that illegal stuff is happening nearby. 

I would like to see a change, where there is actually a proper reason to go into a lab, and I don't want to hear, It's IC, becuase its affected a lot of crim's OOCly along with me. 

[Hazel]

This don't make no sense when I'm getting shot up by rifles and LMGs constantly by gang members just because I dared to pull them over for a traffic violation.

Edited February 15 by Hazel

[HobGoblin]

11 minutes ago, addybeta said:

I would like to see a change, where there is actually a proper reason to go into a lab, and I don't want to hear, It's IC, becuase its affected a lot of crim's OOCly along with me. 

This is already a rule. You have been in PD and SD so you should know this by now.

[John Nut]

5 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

This is already a rule. You have been in PD and SD so you should know this by now.

Yes, thats exatcly why we have been told that old Lab rules dont apply anymore.  After raiding my first lab in SED after the rotating labs, I said.  "Are we not meant to leave the lab alone unless a LEGAL specifically calls about a LAB.  I was told by Staff this does not apply anymore.

  Now if you get a call from inside an active lab, it gets raided no matter what, as it has for the past weeks.  constantly being raided. 

Edited February 15 by John Nut

[addybeta]

7 minutes ago, HobGoblin said:

This is already a rule. You have been in PD and SD so you should know this by now.

My point being that if this is a rule then it is obviously not been followed since detectives have been seen just rolling around labs because there are cars in the area.

[HobGoblin]

3 minutes ago, John Nut said:

Yes, thats exatcly why we have been told that old Lab rules dont apply anymore.  After raiding my first lab in SED after the rotating labs, I said.  "Are we not meant to leave the lab alone unless a LEGAL specifically calls about a LAB.  I was told by Staff this does not apply anymore.

  Now if you get a call from inside an active lab, it gets raided no matter what, as it has for the past weeks.  constantly being raided. 

That makes perfect sense. Why would LEOs leave a lab up if they see one? There are only a few active at once and if one is found though IC reasons its shut down and a new one is created.

[HobGoblin]

2 minutes ago, addybeta said:

My point being that if this is a rule then it is obviously not been followed since detectives have been seen just rolling around labs because there are cars in the area.

Just because you don't know the reason, that doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

[addybeta]

1 minute ago, HobGoblin said:

Just because you don't know the reason, that doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

This comes back to the fact that Crim RP will cease to exist, as per now, whenever a gang holds a lab they are bound to get rolled up on by Metro and DB, I can assure you I am not the only one who feels this way. Thay is why I am saying that something needs to change.

[John Nut]

Lets stop arguing on the forum and stick the originale topic please. 

I believe Lab raiding is worth a new thread and discussion.  Lets stick to the originale topic which was the idea of a change to Detectives and their weapons

[HobGoblin]

6 minutes ago, addybeta said:

This comes back to the fact that Crim RP will cease to exist, as per now, whenever a gang holds a lab they are bound to get rolled up on by Metro and DB, I can assure you I am not the only one who feels this way. Thay is why I am saying that something needs to change.

There are meant to be 5 active labs but its bugged. Instead of people creating a bug reports that would help, they would rather sit and cry on the forums until a cop who doesn't even use the labs has to post it. More labs is a less chance of it getting raided. Also labs don't get raided that often, some days more than others but on average its less than ONE per day from what I have seen on duty.

 

Edited February 15 by HobGoblin

[alexalex303]

I think that part of the issue is that in the context of the game, there aren't a lot of tools available for detectives to actively pursue things. Tracing is easily countered and there are no alternative means of surveillance. No real cameras, no trackers, no phone recordings.