Are FM too restrictive?

[Destuin]

Just a recent thought that came into my mind with turfs. For those of you who are not criminals that do not know, every turf you take has to be approved by FM. You cannot expand and take any turfs or else you risk consequences from FM. With the weight system, and the turf "lores" ( I am sure you have all seen the map). Why are we restricted even further within these turfs that we cannot take? For example with my group (The Royals), we have been told there is literally no turfs we are allowed to take. Even in regards to the map there have been restrictions that you cannot take other high class area turfs for almost no reason? I find that this sort of OOC restriction really hinders roleplay opportunities. Why can a crew not expand out and take other turfs to gain more for themselves? Why are you OOC told to not do that? I personally have seen these retractions pressed by FM for some time now. When confronted on it there is never any actual answer? Have you guys also experienced this in your time here?  

[kris giggs]

This seems like a silver lining. These things I can imagine are reviewed on a case-by-case basis as it would make no sense, per se, a Chinese gang like Shenzen Dragons, or a high-end criminal enterprise like The Rooks to expand into south Los Santos where the population is predominantly african-american and is controlled by street gangs. I find it near impossible that your group is unable to take any turfs, do you hold any right now? I can see FM trying to keep a balance and keep it fair despite some gangs being more wittier, wealthier, and stronger compared to others. Taking turfs is not only about selling drugs and chopping cars there, showing actual, physical presence is important as well - and one gang can not be present over the entire city which in turn pushes you to be strategic and form alliances with gangs that hold parts close to you to avoid conflict, and keep power in yours.

[Destuin]

6 minutes ago, kris giggs said:

This seems like a silver lining. These things I can imagine are reviewed on a case-by-case basis as it would make no sense, per se, a Chinese gang like Shenzen Dragons, or a high-end criminal enterprise like The Rooks to expand into south Los Santos where the population is predominantly african-american and is controlled by street gangs. I find it near impossible that your group is unable to take any turfs, do you hold any right now? I can see FM trying to keep a balance and keep it fair despite some gangs being more wittier, wealthier, and stronger compared to others. Taking turfs is not only about selling drugs and chopping cars there, showing actual, physical presence is important as well - and one gang can not be present over the entire city which in turn pushes you to be strategic and form alliances with gangs that hold parts close to you to avoid conflict, and keep power in yours.

I agree with this entirely! I am not sure if you have seen the turf lore map? I will attach a picture to this response. The problem is when FM restrict further within this. For example blue turfs are high end gangs, Purple street gangs. But even within this they tell you to not attack a specific gang for almost no reason? This is very restrictive of any potential roleplay opportunities. But to reiterate I think it is a very good system with the turf map based off of lore!

[Oli]

If FM removes this rule it'll go back to mid-2020 where one alliance had control of all turfs just because they want power. If you were around at the time I'm sure you know how it was.

 

This rule was applied for a good reason. However, I dont get how your faction is not allowed to take any turfs.

[Destuin]

Just now, Oli said:

If FM removes this rule it'll go back to mid-2020 where one alliance had control of all turfs just because they want power. If you were around at the time I'm sure you know how it was.

 

This rule was applied for a good reason. However, I dont get how your faction is not allowed to take any turfs.

Again, are you talking about in response to the new turf lore system? With the updated map above, I was not around for 2020, so am not sure if this lore map existed. But the idea of this map is very good just the RP should be allowed to flow within these limitations of the "lore map". I agree one gang controlling all turfs is not good.

[Oli]

There was no map for it back then, all turfs were free game until this rule was put into place. After then, gangs knew what turfs were they allowed to take and which turfs they were not, based on lore and other factors.

Looking at the blue turfs as high end gang turfs, why exactly are you not allowed to take any?

[Destuin]

1 minute ago, Oli said:

There was no map for it back then, all turfs were free game until this rule was put into place. After then, gangs knew what turfs were they allowed to take and which turfs they were not, based on lore and other factors.

Looking at the blue turfs as high end gang turfs, why exactly are you not allowed to take any?

I guess this is more of a question for FM than me... 

[TheCactus]

I believe the restrictions are too drastic but not excessively.
Yes, it would not make sense for any city organization to go in the desert and fuck with those turfs. Most ghetto people or mafia-organized groups would see nothing appealing in those areas. They should, however, be allowed to expand in Paleto and other areas in the city.
Street gangs always aim higher to get rich fast so why not try to take turfs in Vinewood. At the same time, mafias try to control the "scum" in the ghetto, so they will attempt to control poor areas. Also mafia-like organizations tend to hide the sketchy stuff inside inconspicuous warehouses that they use for legal side business so why wouldn't they have influence in those areas?

I don't see the issue of taking turfs that are "different" from a faction's lore as long as they don't start hanging out there too much or even move their base of operations. You wouldn't see a street gang operate in Blaine County. At the same time, I believe that if your own turf is in a bad shape, you should solve the issues you have at home before expanding. When that's done, if you want to make more money because you have enough power, there should be no restrictions.

This would also create IC conflicts because if a powerful organization starts taking too much, all the others will try to prevent it by forming alliances or will become puppets to survive while slowly losing power.

Edited April 2, 2022 by TheCactus

[IAmTurtle]

FM is not perfect but it is a  lot better then it was when I first joined.

If you have issues with I would recommend talking with your handlers . And if that does not work talking with @Jelleand/or @Bakmeel, both who have been in fm forever and are really good at seeing faction flourish. 

[Bakmeel]

Hello and thank you for sharing your concerns regarding this topic.

We do feel that our change where factions have to stick to the areas their lore places them, is the right way forward and will continue to do so. That being said, we can understand that you'd like some more turfs to expand into. We have been adding turfs step by step over the past 7 months, placing them where we see them most needed and will continue to do so.

I'd like to clarify that Faction Services never told Royals that they are limited to the turfs they currently own and are allowed to contest neighbouring turfs with sufficient reason.

Faction Services is planning to rework the old war system (which is not currently in use) completely and redesign it around attacking, holding and winning turfs in a controlled and enjoyable way for all parties. 

 

Bakmeel

[Bala]

I like you @Bakmeel and I think you and faction management have the best interests of criminal RP in mind but to be blunt, I think you’re wasting your time with whatever you do aside from making factions official or not.

You talk about adjusting the old war system but in truth, it’s the servers attitude towards violent interactions that needs to adjust. There isn’t enough rope for criminal factions to act like criminals, without catching a DM. There was a genuine fear, or at least there was a few months ago that factions didn’t want to do anything to each other for fear of punishments from an admin team that abhorred violence. We became the Sims RP.

When it comes to the turfs, I think in hindsight it’s the single worst thing that we have ever done in the server and it should be binned off at the earliest attempt. The turf system has lead to the chain bank robberies and all their associated problems. 

You are asking factions to stick to their lore and create turfs in areas that make sense for them but these are factions that have little to no sense of identity. They have no real sense of a character as individuals, let alone as a collective. It’s just about what RGB to paint the car colours and what clothes to wear.  Everyone plays themselves and says what they themselves are thinking. Faction Lore is like putting lipstick on a pig. It amounts to ‘this faction is x because they have an x sounding name’ or ‘this faction is this but they’ll take out their phones and record stuff and say things that don’t make any sense’.

I have tried to bring forward player faction clothing for the official factions and alter their areas that they hang visually to better reflection the Eclipse universe we roleplay in but I’ve received next to no encouragement or interaction with FM regarding that, only complaints that I’m doing it in the first place. I’m literally offering content to the server and the response I get is negative.. what?

I said it at the start of last year and I said it at the start of this. There are three underlying issues facing criminal factions on this server and addressing anything else is like flying a kite in a hurricane. 

- Server Attitude towards criminals doing criminal shit. 

- Existing systems for criminal role players either encouraging behaviour that isn’t grounded in RP, has little to no variation with a lot of repetition or that specifically tries to exploit the meta. 

- Lack of new criminal content over the past 18 months, that encourages re-engagement, activity and investment in characters/factions. People and Faction just exist until they either get banned or finally phase out of ECRP. 

I consider myself glad I don’t play as a criminal, because I’d have to continuously do the same thing every day whether I wanted to or not to maintain my faction.

When I got caught, I’d have to go to a place on the server where there is little to nothing to do on the server for a few hours aside from likely get screamed at or punched. 

Should I actually win a situation, I’d probably have to spend the next day defending my actions on the forums because someone can’t take an L without complaining.

Faction Management isn’t too strict, it’s just currently too obsolete to make a real difference. The real things that need to be addressed, cannot be addressed by faction management or by the staff team or me for that matter. Until that happens, it’s just putting out fires until the next one catches.

[Suken]

20 hours ago, Bala said:

I like you @Bakmeel and I think you and faction management have the best interests of criminal RP in mind but to be blunt, I think you’re wasting your time with whatever you do aside from making factions official or not.

You talk about adjusting the old war system but in truth, it’s the servers attitude towards violent interactions that needs to adjust. There isn’t enough rope for criminal factions to act like criminals, without catching a DM. There was a genuine fear, or at least there was a few months ago that factions didn’t want to do anything to each other for fear of punishments from an admin team that abhorred violence. We became the Sims RP.

When it comes to the turfs, I think in hindsight it’s the single worst thing that we have ever done in the server and it should be binned off at the earliest attempt. The turf system has lead to the chain bank robberies and all their associated problems. 

You are asking factions to stick to their lore and create turfs in areas that make sense for them but these are factions that have little to no sense of identity. They have no real sense of a character as individuals, let alone as a collective. It’s just about what RGB to paint the car colours and what clothes to wear.  Everyone plays themselves and says what they themselves are thinking. Faction Lore is like putting lipstick on a pig. It amounts to ‘this faction is x because they have an x sounding name’ or ‘this faction is this but they’ll take out their phones and record stuff and say things that don’t make any sense’.

I have tried to bring forward player faction clothing for the official factions and alter their areas that they hang visually to better reflection the Eclipse universe we roleplay in but I’ve received next to no encouragement or interaction with FM regarding that, only complaints that I’m doing it in the first place. I’m literally offering content to the server and the response I get is negative.. what?

I said it at the start of last year and I said it at the start of this. There are three underlying issues facing criminal factions on this server and addressing anything else is like flying a kite in a hurricane. 

- Server Attitude towards criminals doing criminal shit. 

- Existing systems for criminal role players either encouraging behaviour that isn’t grounded in RP, has little to no variation with a lot of repetition or that specifically tries to exploit the meta. 

- Lack of new criminal content over the past 18 months, that encourages re-engagement, activity and investment in characters/factions. People and Faction just exist until they either get banned or finally phase out of ECRP. 

I consider myself glad I don’t play as a criminal, because I’d have to continuously do the same thing every day whether I wanted to or not to maintain my faction.

When I got caught, I’d have to go to a place on the server where there is little to nothing to do on the server for a few hours aside from likely get screamed at or punched. 

Should I actually win a situation, I’d probably have to spend the next day defending my actions on the forums because someone can’t take an L without complaining.

Faction Management isn’t too strict, it’s just currently too obsolete to make a real difference. The real things that need to be addressed, cannot be addressed by faction management or by the staff team or me for that matter. Until that happens, it’s just putting out fires until the next one catches.

+1

i agree on that with all the new additions to all the legal factions over the course of 18 month on other hand low-to-none to illegal factions.

it just feels like legal factions get stuff done faster than illegal ones i believe we really need more time to focus more on illegal factions and give them more attention and take some of that attention given to legal ones as it is really needed. as literally no new change it just daily routine with even prices increases on us x3 on guns with no more ways of gaining money other than the ones we had before the gun price increase.

we want to have fun yet it turned out to play to win mentality with even legals not capable of taking an L in which all the stuff they had were given to them. didn't waste a single penny on his loss

[Destuin]

I would like to add to this that when I used to be a member of the rooks, I was with this gang for a long period of time. During which there was many FM meetings discussing turfs. We would often ask for additional turfs or dealers to be placed (as this increases the amount you can order without having to add an extra turf), and we were repeatedly told that we should not let turfs and power to order effect our lore or roleplay. For those of you who don't know turf is based off of the spawned npc's/assets in the area. A warehouse giving 50 extra power, 10 for an extra NPC. So most turfs come down at 20 power (less than one drop of lysergic), where as some turfs are linked up to have 80+! We bit our tongues and struggled on with the meagre 90 power we had. However racing gangs who are scriptly protected from attacks are able to hold 3x as much power, as larger, stronger criminal organizations. How does this make any sense? Criminal organizations, open restaurants, launder MILLIONS in packed cash only to receive less than half of what a racing faction gets with only a fraction of the effort. The weakest gang in terms of lore, holds the most power?

Edited April 7, 2022 by Destuin

[Stew Walker]

4 minutes ago, Destuin said:

I would like to add to this that when I used to be a member of the rooks, I was with this gang for a long period of time. During which there was many FM meetings discussing turfs. We would often ask for additional turfs or dealers to be placed (as this increases the amount you can order without having to add an extra turf), and we were repeatedly told that we should not let turfs and power to order effect our lore or roleplay. For those of you who don't know turf is based off of the spawned npc's/assets in the area. A warehouse giving 50 extra power, 10 for an extra NPC. So most turfs come down at 20 power (less than one drop of lysergic), where as some turfs are linked up to have 80+! We bit our tongues and struggled on with the meagre 90 power we had. However racing gangs who are scriptly protected from attacks are able to hold 3x as much power, as larger, stronger criminal organizations. How does this make any sense? Criminal organizations, open restaurants, launder MILLIONS in packed cash only to receive less than half of what a racing faction gets with only a fraction of the effort. The weakest gang in terms of lore, holds the most power?

As a member of both factions referred to by @Destuin, Los Santos Drift, and Los Santos Royals, for a combined 3k hours give or take I feel comfortable commenting on this topic in specific. 

LSDrift Backstory
When I first joined Drift shipping power was something new to the gang and we had only the turfs provided to us immediately after receiving official status(Core + MMI + Gun Store Launder).
This total a minimal amount of shipping power, around 120.  
In the foreground is a very live turf war between the then heavily active 6ix7even Spartans and Russian Mob over Azteca Tunnel drug turf - valuable in shipping power. 
Post 6ix7even Spartans disbanding left not only the Azteca tunnel turf uncontested but it left Los Santos Drift unprotected as well, as they helped to aid the Spartans in this turf war.
Many of 6ix7even join Drift because people have built a relationship from constant RP.
Russians and Drift start to struggle for Azteca Tunnel and LSD loses all turfs (other than core merely because script doesn't allow that). 
At this moment Los Santos Drift would receive - assuming Russians haven't hit core - 60 shipping power for the foreseeable future until the disbandment of the Russian Mob.
With the industrial district now vacated and FM conveniently adding additional NPCs just before the disbandment of the Russian Mob to trucker's yard, gave Los Santos Drift the opportunity to maximize their business of exporting Lysergic, Muriatic, and Toluene.
It has since remained that way and Drift would add or drop turfs as they saw fit for their activity currently matched with the decay and order flow (About 380 shipping power).
Additionally, as the demand grew for Drift, FM allowed for the people who were constantly attending important shipments to import armor as protection; something LSD was not permitted to do before.

Issues with high-class lore
Speaking to how this Lore wise affects factions with high-class aspirations. 
For example an order of materials required to make drugs other than Coke and Crack occupies 37.5 shipping power for 250. 
Gangs such as Rooks and Royals find themselves in a unique situation as they always seem to be struggling with their shipping power even though they are meant to have strong business connections and have a seemingly endless supplier(As per lore). However, are only able to place around 3-4 a day when differing factions with an RPly weaker lore receive 3x.
IC business plays a large factor as well, as stated in my Drift section, exporting orders was something Royals did to maintain their brand across the criminal community IE: Supporting gangs like Shenzhen Dragons(prior to official), VOID, and Creed. 
This would leave very little shipping power - around 85 - to divide amongst the 38 members currently participating in the Royals Faction. 
Unable to successfully hit all four banks every day, unable to import materials to cook drugs, and unable to work freelance jobs left gangs like Rooks and Royals scriptly and RPly in a tough position financially. 
Mixed messaging sometimes plays a role also as high command is guided to approach most things positively so RPly factions now form small cliques with compatible lore rather than contesting one another over common interests as Rooks and Royals were probably intended to do...
It is this problem that leaves both Royals and Rooks the inability to expand outside of the hotly contested Drug Labs that provide the least amount of shipping power.
Moreover, for these factions weapons are a priority before cooking drugs (mostly for RP and Lore) leaving even less power for people to fill their time up with criminal RP in tandem with the script allowing you to fulfill gang lore by being wealthy, successful, and remaining good at business. 

It goes without saying that nobody logs into the server to struggle day in and day out. The majority of criminals are looking for fun and creative ways to express themselves through their gang's lore. Occasionally there are script limits that prevent these factions from realizing their full RP potential. However, I don't believe that there is a "strict" aspect of FM that is hindering people to the extreme many might believe. A lot of the time a healthy conversation between the faction and FM can lead to an understanding that can be mutually agreed upon. 

This may not be the place but I would like to comment on the decision to limit the number of orders allowed by criminal factions following the Plane Crash Event. 
Maybe this is a problem exclusive to myself but I can not stay online without ANY script for more than a few hours at a time. 
Following the plane crash, maintaining turf was no longer a concern for the crim factions as their shipping power was effectively cut off. 
This lead to an unhealthy amount of inactivity and eventual conflicts internally about the priority of the gang. 
Nobody would log in for more than an hour or two to hang around HQ, RP for a bit, maybe show up to meetings and leave because there was a lack of activities to participate in that could both feed your RP side and your adrenaline.  
I somewhat attribute that IC punishment to my demotivation recently.