Strange interpretation of "Engaging in criminal activity"

[JohnnydaHo]

The rule states:

 

• If a player uses the NCZ for protection the attacker must wait for that player to leave the area.
• Players may not go to a NCZ within 15 minutes after engaging in criminal activity or a resulting chase, unless they are turning themselves in to law enforcement.

 

Today I drove through a high crime area and as I was leaving a bike and car who were heading into the area also turned around and started following me yelling "get off the bike". No weapons were ever brandished or pointed at me. I had no interaction with these players before this.  I rode to Sandy MD where I got off the bike and was going to talk to the people following me. it is there that admin got involved and ruled that the mere act of driving through a high crime area triggers the application of this rule. I tried the best I could to explain my literal interpretation of the rule and that I had not "engaged" in any criminal activity in the first place that would warrant triggering the rule. I tried to explain that if I followed this rule as written I could go to the NCZ to turn myself in for the criminal activity that gave rise to them chasing me, but the obvious problem is that it is not a crime to just drive through a crime zone so there was nothing that, if I had wanted to, I could turn myself in for. I had nothing illegal on me when this was going down. With respect, the ruling seems non sensical to me and it turns the words "engaging in criminal activity" on its head to the point that you actually do not have to engage in any activity other than drive through a crime area, something which you can't even be arrested or charged for. After all these are still public roads.

To add insult to injury after riding to the city and back and circling around our HQ hoping to run into a brother (I was not strapped) I ended up stopping in front of the Sandy 24/7 where I rp'd having a heart attack. I fell to the ground and was going in and out of consciousness. The admin got involved again and interfered with that rp. A police officer drove up and I asked for help as the guy was faking giving me bls and was going to just leave me there after looting me and taking my bike. The admin ignored the RP of me going in and out of consciousness and told the police officer to leave thus enabling the theft in a very public place.

While I appreciate that I was not given any punishment or warning for the situation (hence no appeal) I felt I had to express my dismay at an interpretation and application of a rule in manner that is, on its face,  inconsistent with the actual wording of the rule. 

On a more positive note I did really appreciate the admin allowing me to use VOIP during our interaction after explaining that as a disabled senior with painful dexterity issues my typing can be slow and often make mistakes as I try not to slow down the RP. (sometimes it takes me several attempt to type in the scripted commands) For that matter I really do appreciate all of the players who have got to know me and show me the patience and understanding when that happens.

 

[Miky]

Druglabs are highly dangerous locations, either you go there to meet some gangs/people or to collect plants your character still remains in a criminal location where people can easily initiate robberies at. The NCZ rule that you quoted above gives the possibility to the criminals to conduct a robbery without any OOC obstacles and staying within the rules, the NCZ RPly doesnt give you protection however OOCly the player knows that he cannot commit any sort of crime within the area so the RP cannot continue for obvious OOC reason which is obviously not fair. 

 "engaging in criminal activity" on its head to the point that you actually do not have to engage in any activity other than drive through a crime area, something which you can't even be arrested or charged for. After all these are still public roads. 

^ The player doesnt have to know the context of the situation you are in if you are in a druglab, from his prospective you could be selling a large amount of drugs or collecting a large amount of marijuana plants and i can go on and on with the things you could be doing but the fact remains there.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Miky

[JohnnydaHo]

The rules say nothing of the state of knowledge of the attacker. The first rule says that if you are being attacked and go to an NCZ the attacker must wait until you leave. There is nothing unfair about it as its provided right in the rules. When informed that I was not engaged in criminal activity at the time, the other player is free to question that and bring in an admin. The admin could then review to verify as opposed to twisting the rule so that the plain meaning is not destroyed in the process.

[Dirty Mike]

Yeah I agree I dont think being in areas where drug activity or crime happens should constitute "engaging in criminal activity".  If they see you ex Picking weed plants, using a drug table, or chopping a car, talking to a drug dealer then it should be fair game. But with that current logic owning a house on grove st and being at it would be "engaging in criminal activity "

[JohnnydaHo]

9 hours ago, Dirty Mike said:

Yeah I agree I dont think being in areas where drug activity or crime happens should constitute "engaging in criminal activity".  If they see you ex Picking weed plants, using a drug table, or chopping a car, talking to a drug dealer then it should be fair game. But with that current logic owning a house on grove st and being at it would be "engaging in criminal activity "

Exactly. I mean on this admins logic it is against the rules for me to drive from our HQ at motel to the Sandy MD ATM, which is surrounded by a chop, money launderers etc. 

[alexalex303]

1 hour ago, JohnnydaHo said:

Exactly. I mean on this admins logic it is against the rules for me to drive from our HQ at motel to the Sandy MD ATM, which is surrounded by a chop, money launderers etc. 

It should be against the rules; these rules are made so that civilians and regular players are not hunted excessively by gangs.

If you are a gang with an HQ, you should not be hiding in NCZs from other gangs. 

[JohnnydaHo]

it should be against the rules; these rules are made so that civilians and regular players are not hunted excessively by gangs.

If you are a gang with an HQ, you should not be hiding in NCZs from other gangs. 

 

 

Well the issue is simply playing by the rules which I do. And rules should make sense.  People have chosen to live in a crime infested city so there would be no logic in having NCZ for some and not others in the first place. Plus, try asking a gang member if they are in a gang....9/10 you get no I am just a random...and suddenly a whole gang swoops in on you. If the issue is quality of RP wrt gangs hunting players excessively, the RP for civilians or a club member (Lost is NOT a gang), is the same.  Currently there is one particular City gang that comes out to the country in a pack to hunt for single members and for months it has been  just the same old rp. it lasts a few minutes and it goes like this:  Hands up pussy, on your knees retard, pussy bitch pussy bitch retard /friskrequest pussy bitch retard /shavehead pussy retard" and that's about it. It has become virtually impossible to be in the city without having that RP forced upon you or having them pulling up behind you and following you making the rp that you were doing impossible. So if the NCZ are created to stop the continual hunting, which only leads to the point where people will just get bored or turned off to the point of wanting to leave the server all together, then there is no need for a distinction. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by JohnnydaHo

[Destuin]

7 hours ago, Kieran Horn said:

You shouldn't be penalized for driving through a high crime area, that's ridiculous. The point of not fleeing to NCZ's because of criminal activity is it makes sense to avoid the authorities when you are committing crimes. 

 

Following that logic, if I as a coroner pick up a body at a drug lab, I am free game. Even though I'm literally doing my job, you are saying I cannot flee to an NCZ if someone comes after me. 

That is stupid. You all know it is. 

Your trying to generalise a rule. A coroner driving in to collect a body, is different to a rival gang member driving around in criminal areas (labs), and then when confronted fleeing to a NCZ.

[Victor Einhart]

9 hours ago, Kieran Horn said:

Following that logic, if I as a coroner pick up a body at a drug lab, I am free game.

...No? That's not true at all.

[TheOwl]

Everyone is fair game in a lab including coroners.

If me and my fellow gang members are at a lab and a coroner drives in and sees us with heavy weapons then we might hold him up and take his phone battery.

 

The simple fact that you've witnessed someone doing something illegal gives them more than enough reason to confront you.

[TheOwl]

If you have given a gang reasonable suspicion to think that you have witnessed them performing illegal activities you have engaged in criminal RP. 

 

This is why certain areas are labeled as "high crime areas". If you do not want to participate then steer clear. 

 

Once a gang has reasonable suspicion to think you have witnessed them doing something illegal, are trying to chop a stolen vehicle or are trying to sell drugs you are no longer protected by the NCZ rule.

[JohnnydaHo]

 

Posted 11 hours ago

"If you have given a gang reasonable suspicion to think that you have witnessed them performing illegal activities you have engaged in criminal RP. 

This is why certain areas are labeled as "high crime areas". If you do not want to participate then steer clear. 

Once a gang has reasonable suspicion to think you have witnessed them doing something illegal, are trying to chop a stolen vehicle or are trying to sell drugs you are no longer protected by the NCZ rule."

 

Why do you feel the need to edit the actual rule into something that does not exist? The rule does not rely on the mindset of the aggressive gang but rather on the actual activity of the person whom they are pursuing. Moreover, in this particular case the pursuers  came in behind and saw me roll around without stopping and leave. The lab was theirs if they wanted it. I did not witness them engaging in criminal activity either.

Edited March 7, 2022 by JohnnydaHo
more contecxt

[Aieos]

I was just going to let this play out, but after seeing so much blatantly incorrect information thrown around I feel this should be explained proper so as to not mislead anybody with what NCZ rules are.

If you are a coroner and you go pick up a body that somebody called for at a drug lab, you can go to a NCZ after if you want to. You committed no crime and are able to go where you please.

If you get chased or followed after leaving the area you shouldn't go to a NCZ to use it as protection against the people following you unless you're going to the police for assistance in the matter. In which case visiting a police station would make perfect sense even though its a NCZ. (Implying you haven't committed a crime yourself, if you have, then your intentions should be to turn yourself in as defined specifically in the servers rules)

If you decide to go to a NCZ, such as the bank to avoid negative interactions with your pursuers as a result of you being near a drug lab, then you would be "ruleplaying", which is against the rules. It wouldn't make sense to be pursued by threatening individuals and pull over at a nearby bank expecting them to not still be hostile towards you.

It all depends on the context leading up to you going to a specific NCZ that would determine if a rule is being broken. Don't take a situation from this post as a ruling for you doing things, you could have a similar situation but the context slightly differs making it a rulebreak even though you were so sure you could run to that police station. This is just a "perfect world" example to help better understand what the rule means, not that every instance of going to a police station is okay.

Simply stating that "being near a drug lab means you can't go to a NCZ" isn't correct.

[Harveyyy]

Hello, 

I remember dealing with your situation, where you have been given hostile demands at sealabs and was being chased up-north. During the criminal chase, you've fully acknowledged the fact that the player was hostile towards you, and wanted to rob you. After you've failed to lose him, you decided to go to Sandy MD, which is an NCZ. You stood there while he was directly next to you, waiting for you to leave the NCZ so the chase can continue. 

It was abundantly clear that you went to the NCZ to avoid any negative interactions with the player, and have used the NCZ as protection and outside of its intention. If you went to the sheriff's station to report the player, then it would've been a different situation, however, you just stood there next to him, knowing that he can't do you any harm because of the server rule. 

As there was a misunderstanding on your end, I decided to just educate you on the rules and not issue any warnings / punishments. 

The rule can be broken in many ways, and it depends on the context of the situation; there's no black/white answer. Just because what happened isn't specifically stated in the rule, doesn't mean what you did was not against it. I hope this have cleared it up for you. Keep in mind ruleplaying is "Purposefully using, manipulating or interpreting rules or rulings falsely or outside of its intention, in an unrealistic or unintended way that does not constitute quality or realistic RP standards." 

Thanks.

[JohnnydaHo]

Harveyyy all I said was that I rolled through Sealabs without stopping and  they came in behind. As I was leaving someone yelled from behind "get off the bike". No weapons were drawn. Being an avid Harley rider I know that yelling at a guy on a harley who is going by you at 60mph is fruitless and virtually NRP. So too is being in a car hundreds of feet behind going down a highway at 140mph and yelling demands at a a rider in front is also ridiculous and imo NRP. I did not "know" what their ultimate goal was...I assumed. I would have agreed with the ruling hands down if they had actually seen me engage with the area or even just being off my bike in the area. But in this case they knew I had not. I interpreted the rule giving the words their plain meaning and was not attempting to rule play but just rp Fear RP. The point in these circumstances the way it was ruled was that I was simply in a high crime area, had someone yell get off the bike as I was leaving and that's it. imo your interpretation of "engaging in criminal activity" makes no sense to me as it guts the NCZ rule the way it is written, and I do say that respectfully. To analogize, applying the exact same logic to the same set of facts except just changing the location, If I were to leave our clubhouse in Sandy to ride to the Sandy medical to pick someone up and someone drives by me on the way and yells "get off the bike", I would now be in breach of the rule to continue on to the NCZ. 

When I was in the middle of rping a cardiac event and was laying on the ground going in and out of consciousness in front of a very public store (non NCZ) you intervened again but this time you actually coached the other player that he could now loot me, applauded his fake use of a BLS kit, and then you chased away a police officer who drove up and stopped seeing me there on the ground as I asked him for help. Ultimately this involvement assisted and assured that the player would get my belongings and bike.

Admin tells us that knowing the rules is our responsibility but when one can not trust that a rule will be interpreted in a manner consistent with its plain wording that becomes difficult.

 

all of this is of course said and meant with big love for eclipse and I do really appreciate the time you put in to the community.

[jason]

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