Cops and IC Evidence

[BigDaddySco]

I would like to see the RP of cops in this city become more like RP and charges/convictions being based around evidence collection and not simply based on word or no evidence. For me, the cop experience is poor RP most of the time and cops play to win and act more like a gang than actual cops that are here to protect and serve.

For me what I think would make RP better when dealing with cops would be the following:

1. All crimes should be investigated and backed up by collecting as much IC evidence linking you to a crime as possible. This could be collecting prints from weapons or other items, CCTV, Licence plates, tyre marks etc etc. This should all be done IC and collected and presented when making an arrest. 

2. All evidence should be presented to a persons legal representative upon request. Since we lack legal representation in this city then we should be able to choose anyone (friends etc) to do this for us or choose to represent ourselves. 

3. Cops tell us that IC evidence is completely confidential and as a Detective said, "The evidence is confidential and under no circumstances is anyone able to see it. Even if reported ICly, he would not be able to see the actual evidence." (This seem ludicrous to me, how can one defend themselves or be defended against evidence they cannot see, in RL a legal representative would be bale to view evidence. I also believes this could allow cops to make up fake evidence or allows them not to RP collecting any at all). 

4. Bring in a courthouse and appoint city judges where evidence can be presented to the court and both sides of the story can be told. Allow judges to decide if the accused is guilty or not and if charges or some are to be dropped.

RP is why we are all here and when dealing with cops RP only generally goes in one direction and that is the direction the cop wishes it to go and at the very least a single cop or detective should not be able to be judge, jury and executioner by himself. Its unrealistic unless we are RPing to be Judge Dredd

[Hilbert]

12 hours ago, BigDaddySco said:

4. Bring in a courthouse and appoint city judges where evidence can be presented to the court and both sides of the story can be told. Allow judges to decide if the accused is guilty or not and if charges or some are to be dropped.

No.

[LegendBeb]

We already have people complaining about "wasting" their time when we are transporting them.

Imagine what "court" system would do.

[BigDaddySco]

57 minutes ago, LegendBeb said:

We already have people complaining about "wasting" their time when we are transporting them.

Imagine what "court" system would do.

People on a RP server complaining about having to RP haha. I think people complain because there is little RP when being arrested though and that is what wastes their time. The main bulk of it is when you get to prison and have to deal with the guards when you first enter. Police involvement when being arrested gives very little RP. You listen to what they are charging you with, they provide no evidence and you sit there like a dummy until you are eventually transported to prison. The only RP is /do success or /do yes he can while youre being searched or some other weak RP scenario. The whole point of the suggestion made is to increase the RP situations as well as make it more like RL.

[dhardie1]

Court system is a great idea, people probably moan about getting their time wasted because they know its going whatever way the cop decides. Another legal faction could be made which consists of judges, lawyers ect.. I really cannot see why this would be bad for the server and has never been implemented before, I'm sure loads of people would love to apply for a faction like this. Saying this I believe it would need to be an appeal court, so you still have to do the time but then when it goes to court and say you win your case, then the charges get removed from your criminal record and you are compensated a certain amount from the pd, this would then make cops need to be 100% sure when they make arrests and provide good factual evidence. A court system could bring so much better Rp to the server and make people need to Rp to a better standard.  +1

Edited May 6, 2020 by dhardie1

[BigDaddySco]

3 hours ago, Hilbert said:

No.

Perhaps you should comment with a better explanation instead of just no! 

Edited May 6, 2020 by BigDaddySco

[LegendBeb]

Either way when you are being "arrested" that means you have been caught in crime or evidence was already shown.

Every officer wears a body camera IC'ly, same goes for our cruisers which has implented dash cameras.

My point is bringing every suspect we arrest to the court, would just flood the court and there would not be enough "judges".

At the peak hours the number of calls, arrest, chases we get involved is just obnoxious.

I'm not saying its a bad suggestion, It just needs more ideas on how to implent it.

Edited May 6, 2020 by LegendBeb

[dhardie1]

Yeah totally understand that. That's why I think the original arrest should still stand and its more of an appeal court, you would then need to take your case to your lawyer and they would take it too the judge. You would need to have a sensible fight for it to go to court irl so same goes here, also maby something like if you win the pd department need to compensate money from budget, if you lose then you need to pay the cost of the court? Would then make people really think about taking petty ones to court. 

[BigDaddySco]

4 minutes ago, LegendBeb said:

Either way when you are being "arrested" that means you have been caught in crime or evidence was already shown.

Every officer wears a body camera IC'ly, same goes for our cruisers which has implented dash cameras.

My point is bringing every suspect we arrest to the court, would just flood the court and there would not be enough "judges".

At the peak hours the number of calls, arrest, chases we get involved is just obnoxious.

I'm not saying its a bad suggestion, It just needs more ideas on how to implent it.

Yeah I agree, not every little case could and should when someone has been caught red handed. But serious offences that involve detectives etc then possibly. If a case requires collecting evidence and required investigation then it should definitely. But I would also say that cops in this city are too good and lobbing on every charge possible when sometimes there is no need for it. Ive lost count of the amount of times cops have bunged on very petty charges just because they can even though they make not much RP sense. These should at least be approved by a nigher up in  Police faction and evidence to back charges should be presented to them at least. 

But for sure crimes that involve collecting RP evidence and require investigation by detectives should go through a court process. The whole point in all of this is to take judge, jury and executioner away from Police and provide much better RP for crimes.

I am sure people would love to be part of a legal faction and work as a lawyer or judge etc and get paid for doing it on a character alt. High profile court cases could be covered by the media too which would make for better RP for them and Police would have to escort gang leaders to court etc too. The RP scenarios are endless with this type of system compared to what we currently have.

[BigDaddySco]

9 minutes ago, dhardie1 said:

Yeah totally understand that. That's why I think the original arrest should still stand and its more of an appeal court, you would then need to take your case to your lawyer and they would take it too the judge. You would need to have a sensible fight for it to go to court irl so same goes here, also maby something like if you win the pd department need to compensate money from budget, if you lose then you need to pay the cost of the court? Would then make people really think about taking petty ones to court. 

An appeal court could work too I guess. having the chance to appeal convictions and reverse fines etc could still expand the role play beyond how it is for now. This would probably lead to better RP from cops when collecting IC evidence and logging it etc. The court could have a booking system where available court dates can be booked through the forums or something. 

As I said im my previous response, I am sure if we had a legal faction people would jump at the chance to become a judge or lawyer. But as with anything it may take time to build up, who knows. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by BigDaddySco

[THNDR]

  

16 hours ago, BigDaddySco said:

3. Cops tell us that IC evidence is completely confidential and as a Detective said, "The evidence is confidential and under no circumstances is anyone able to see it. Even if reported ICly, he would not be able to see the actual evidence." (This seem ludicrous to me, how can one defend themselves or be defended against evidence they cannot see, in RL a legal representative would be bale to view evidence. I also believes this could allow cops to make up fake evidence or allows them not to RP collecting any at all). 

Evidence is confidential, whether that is footage from a snitch or from an undercover operation. If reported, IA will have full access to it. Having fake evidence is corruption, which you need ooc permission from the chief to be, meaning that it is not very common.

 

Furthermore I think this suggestion with evidence could be brought up IC'ly.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Thunderboss

[CaesarSeizure]

1 minute ago, BigDaddySco said:

Yeah I agree, not every little case could and should when someone has been caught red handed. But serious offences that involve detectives etc then possibly. If a case requires collecting evidence and required investigation then it should definitely. But I would also say that cops in this city are too good and lobbing on every charge possible when sometimes there is no need for it. Ive lost count of the amount of times cops have bunged on very petty charges just because they can even though they make not much RP sense. These should at least be approved by a nigher up in  Police faction and evidence to back charges should be presented to them at least. 

But for sure crimes that involve collecting RP evidence and require investigation by detectives should go through a court process. The whole point in all of this is to take judge, jury and executioner away from Police and provide much better RP for crimes.

I am sure people would love to be part of a legal faction and work as a lawyer or judge etc and get paid for doing it on a character alt. High profile court cases could be covered by the media too which would make for better RP for them and Police would have to escort gang leaders to court etc too. The RP scenarios are endless with this type of system compared to what we currently have.

IF you believe someone is just straight up breaking our protocols, IA report for OOC reasons. Very few people do have corruption permissions, so you can report that to IA or potentially to forums, as being OOC corrupt without permission is against server rules.

For the charges, i do think that the best thing is to have examples, because too often people claim they are getting too many or inaccurate charges without examples.

The court faction would have to be likely the 2nd hardest faction to get into, 2nd only to becoming a commissioner. As it would likely be limited numbers + would need to be your main focus etc. At the start would likely fall on the heads of admin+ to handle these.

An appeal court does seem like a better option as suggested by Hardie, but the big thing is, if we are gonna be required to actually have full evidence that extends beyond /dos you can expect an increase in time for all charges just because of all the extra effort this would take from regular officers that just want to play the game.

 

[GoldenEye]

16 hours ago, BigDaddySco said:

I would like to see the RP of cops in this city become more like RP and charges/convictions being based around evidence collection and not simply based on word or no evidence. For me, the cop experience is poor RP most of the time and cops play to win and act more like a gang than actual cops that are here to protect and serve.

For me what I think would make RP better when dealing with cops would be the following:

1. All crimes should be investigated and backed up by collecting as much IC evidence linking you to a crime as possible. This could be collecting prints from weapons or other items, CCTV, Licence plates, tyre marks etc etc. This should all be done IC and collected and presented when making an arrest. 

2. All evidence should be presented to a persons legal representative upon request. Since we lack legal representation in this city then we should be able to choose anyone (friends etc) to do this for us or choose to represent ourselves. 

3. Cops tell us that IC evidence is completely confidential and as a Detective said, "The evidence is confidential and under no circumstances is anyone able to see it. Even if reported ICly, he would not be able to see the actual evidence." (This seem ludicrous to me, how can one defend themselves or be defended against evidence they cannot see, in RL a legal representative would be bale to view evidence. I also believes this could allow cops to make up fake evidence or allows them not to RP collecting any at all). 

4. Bring in a courthouse and appoint city judges where evidence can be presented to the court and both sides of the story can be told. Allow judges to decide if the accused is guilty or not and if charges or some are to be dropped.

RP is why we are all here and when dealing with cops RP only generally goes in one direction and that is the direction the cop wishes it to go and at the very least a single cop or detective should not be able to be judge, jury and executioner by himself. Its unrealistic unless we are RPing to be Judge Dredd

Honestly speaking; you are saying these because you have never been in PD and more importantly IB to see how they operates closely. A lot of effort and hours are put into each case. When you scam a member of the law enforcement, show your license and deposit the money to your account, you must expect being charged accordingly. Only because you do not have access to our database and cannot see the evidence we have it does not mean we "MG PG NRP" placing charges on people. 

After that; can you define poor RP in your own words? Do you want us to ask "/ldo I would be checking your Novak, would it still be registered to you?" instead of checking it directly using the MDC? Alright, let me give some examples of other faction members' "Poor RP". I have screenshots and videos of people saving us as "Cop 2", "Detective 11", "Sergeant 4" or others like "Killed me 2" "Robbed me" , etc. As a member of the Investigations Bureau; 99% of the times we go undercover, our cover is blown by a guy who saves our name as "Detective". Well, as usual, most of you will say "IC Issue" which does not seem right.

Let me give another example. A player has two characters, one of them is well-established in a criminal organization and the other is not a very successful member of the Law Enforcement. The player uses his Law Enforcement knowledge to benefit his other character which is Metagaming. In addition; when he is playing on his Law Enforcement character, he tries to help his criminal friends. As an example, when he engages in a shootout with them; he tries to kill them so they do not go to prison. He then shares it on their faction discord and then becomes popular among his friends. As far as my memory serves me correctly; this is considered a breach of corruption rules and mercy-killing for the officer and failure to report a player for all the people who had seen the mentioned video on their faction discord. Besides, I could have reported this player and the people who failed to report this a long time ago. However, I am trying to avoid OOC conflicts between factions.

In my opinion, people's IC loss is affecting their OOC attitude towards other factions which does not have good effect on our community. We have an Internal Affairs Division which handles these kinds of reports but in an IC manner. Instead of causing and promoting OOC hatred by distorting situations on your faction discord, you could have easily reported the said officers who put false charges on you ICly.

What is more; do you expect us to show you a footage of a snitch in your faction warehouse collecting evidence for pressing charges against you? Does that sound logical to you? When you bring your criminal friend to a "Legal questioning", why do you think we would show him any evidence? Regarding the court system, we already have a "Government-provided attorney" or in other words, administration team members. Moreover; placing false charges on people purposely will always result in a faction removal or a permanent ban from the server for breaking corruption rules.

Edited May 6, 2020 by GoldenEye

[BigDaddySco]

1 hour ago, CaesarSeizure said:

An appeal court does seem like a better option as suggested by Hardie, but the big thing is, if we are gonna be required to actually have full evidence that extends beyond /dos you can expect an increase in time for all charges just because of all the extra effort this would take from regular officers that just want to play the game.

 

Thats part of the problem, they want to play a game which usually involves acting like a gang instead of a Police force. My experience with cops usually sees a very low standard of RP when really every single cop should have a very high standard of RP. Not only that but the interaction with cops should have more RP for all involved when it doesn't at all in my opinion and experience. 

[BigDaddySco]

21 minutes ago, GoldenEye said:

Honestly speaking; you are saying these because you have never been in PD and more importantly IB to see how they operates closely. A lot of effort and hours are put into each case. When you scam a member of the law enforcement, show your license and deposit the money to your account, you must expect being charged accordingly. Only because you do not have access to our database and cannot see the evidence we have it does not mean we "MG PG NRP" placing charges on people. 

After that; can you define poor RP in your own words? Do you want us to ask "/ldo I would be checking your Novak, would it still be registered to you?" instead of checking it directly using the MDC? Alright, let me give some examples of other faction members' "Poor RP". I have screenshots and videos of people saving us as "Cop 2", "Detective 11", "Sergeant 4" or others like "Killed me 2" "Robbed me" , etc. As a member of the Investigations Bureau; 99% of the times we go undercover, our cover is blown by a guy who saves our name as "Detective". Well, as usual, most of you will say "IC Issue" which does not seem right.

Let me give another example. A player has two characters, one of them is well-established in a criminal organization and the other is not a very successful member of the Law Enforcement. The player uses his Law Enforcement knowledge to benefit his other character which is Metagaming. In addition; when he is playing on his Law Enforcement character, he tries to help his criminal friends. As an example, when he engages in a shootout with them; he tries to kill them so they do not go to prison. He then shares it on their faction discord and then becomes popular among his friends. As far as my memory serves me correctly; this is considered a breach of corruption rules and mercy-killing for the officer and failure to report a player for all the people who had seen the mentioned video on their faction discord. Besides, I could have reported this player and the people who failed to report this a long time ago. However, I am trying to avoid OOC conflicts between factions.

In my opinion, people's IC loss is affecting their OOC attitude towards other factions which does not have good effect on our community. We have an Internal Affairs Division which handles these kinds of reports but in an IC manner. Instead of causing and promoting OOC hatred by distorting situations on your faction discord, you could have easily reported the said officers who put false charges on you ICly.

What is more; do you expect us to show you a footage of a snitch in your faction warehouse collecting evidence for pressing charges against you? Does that sound logical to you? When you bring your criminal friend to a "Legal questioning", why do you think we would show him any evidence? Regarding the court system, we already have a "Government-provided attorney" or in other words, administration team members. Moreover; placing false charges on people purposely will always result in a faction removal or a permanent ban from the server for breaking corruption rules.

I will respond to this in more detail later. Not saying that I have all the answers but there is no denying that the current legal system can be vastly improved to improve the quality and depth of RP between cops and crims. The current Judge Dredd style doesnt work.

[Hilbert]

4 hours ago, BigDaddySco said:

Perhaps you should comment with a better explanation instead of just no! 

No.

[WobblierDog15]

3 hours ago, GoldenEye said:

In my opinion, people's IC loss is affecting their OOC attitude towards other factions which does not have good effect on our community. We have an Internal Affairs Division which handles these kinds of reports but in an IC manner. Instead of causing and promoting OOC hatred by distorting situations on your faction discord, you could have easily reported the said officers who put false charges on you ICly.

I agree 100% with this. If you're not in IB, you simply don't understand all the work that goes in with convicting a suspect. Internal Affairs is basically like court. You want to plead not guilty? Make an IA report, present evidence, and take it from there.

Edited May 6, 2020 by WobblierDog15

[BigDaddySco]

1 hour ago, WobblierDog15 said:

I agree 100% with this. If you're not in IB, you simply don't understand all the work that goes in with convicting a suspect. Internal Affairs is basically like court. You want to plead not guilty? Make an IA report, present evidence, and take it from there.

Yeah perhaps we dont see that work behind the scenes but thats is part of the problem, if it were more like RL then there would be a chance for more extensive RP opportunities. Also, we cant provide evidence as we dont get to see evidence as stated. Its hard to fight against something you are unable to counter.

Anyway, perhaps a court would be too much effort but an appeals court would provide that level of RP opportunity at least without as much work.

[WobblierDog15]

11 minutes ago, BigDaddySco said:

Yeah perhaps we dont see that work behind the scenes but thats is part of the problem, if it were more like RL then there would be a chance for more extensive RP opportunities. Also, we cant provide evidence as we dont get to see evidence as stated. Its hard to fight against something you are unable to counter.

Anyway, perhaps a court would be too much effort but an appeals court would provide that level of RP opportunity at least without as much work.

Other than questioning and interrogations, what more RP opportunities are you looking for? 

[BigDaddySco]

22 minutes ago, WobblierDog15 said:

Other than questioning and interrogations, what more RP opportunities are you looking for? 

If I have answered that already then im not sure what else to say. The current system can be improved to allow for better and more in depth RP between crims and police, how that is done can be debated all day. But the current system is unrealistic and too much power lays solo in the cops hands.

[Henry Goodman]

Here you are guilty until proven innocent, and even if you file IA report you still did your /jtime and basically you get nothing from it. So the IA can never ever ever act as a court.

@WobblierDog15