Elections, Politics & Government Structure

[Astrox]

 

Government

From my perspective the structure of the current government is inefficient, uneffective and essentially renders the government borderline useless where in a roleplay, serious or not, server the government has a large part to play within the servers economical structure and roleplay standards in general.

Considering the RP standards of the server fluctuates more than Carrie Fisher's mood, I think it's more practical to stay on a safe side and use a very simple, watered down version of a real structure which will reap the benefits of it's working effectiveness and efficiency whilst also discarding complexity and an intelligence barrier.

This server has a large and growing playerbase which allows for so much flexibility regardless of how many government officials there are, which allows for a variety of employment opportunities to actually attract more people to subtle, civilian RP.

The structure would look something similar to this;

Elected Officials:

Mayor

City Council

District Attorney (more on this soon)

Charter Offices/Commissions:

City Treasurer

City Clerk

City Operations Officer

Police Commission

Medical Commission

Charter departments:

Department of Finance (Licenses, Permits, Fee's, Taxes ect)

Department of Public Social Support (Housing Programs, Employment Programs, Immigration Integration (New Players))

Department of Cultural Affairs (Community arts, Non-Enforcement anti crime movements ect.)

 

This leaves room for plenty of employment whilst not flooding the system with empty roles. It would allow for new introductions that will change the way we play as civilians purely integrated through role play and character decisions, an example of this would be; The City Treasurer and Council decide to bring forth and idea of small business grants, government grants given to small business owners to kick-start their careers, however there would be ample research done into applicants, with interviews and business briefs to ensure that the money is used wisley.

 

The importance of Elected Officials.

Having elected officials are a perfect way for you the people to have a say in the community without having to go OOC with it. You could speak to a council member about an idea whether it be a law or a community project, the council member will write a bill and it will be voted on.

It also allows things like petitions, fairness and a fluctuation in character development. It also allows for corruption, an indepth way of roleplaying criminal - this might sound bad however under the correct guidance could be something beautiful

 

Under all of the new government stuff, there definitely needs to be a DOJ which can be discussed further and has been by others. I'll be writing a new suggestion soon about it.

 

 

[Wifye]

+1

I do like the look and layout of this thus far.

I'm curious to see how each bit is expanded upon in further detail regarding things like requirements/restrictions on positions, term length, expected responsibility/duties to be performed, and potential pay(also how money is made but I guess just taxes?) 

 

With the judicial suggestions floating around as well, I'm curious if that should be rolled up into this as well or kept separate. Personally I'd like to see it integrated so things like the district attorney office are kept in the same kinda loop and further expand the faction and potential positions.

[Randul]

If you change the name of the roles and shift them slightly you are already describing our current plan. As the faction is already in game and being built upon a server suggestion seems slightly odd. If you want to be a part of helping to mold the government put in an application. 

[Wifye]

2 hours ago, Randyrandul said:

If you change the name of the roles and shift them slightly you are already describing our current plan. As the faction is already in game and being built upon a server suggestion seems slightly odd. If you want to be a part of helping to mold the government put in an application. 

Where would people apply for it at? I don't see it listed under factions on the forums like everything else.

 

edit: I see it on the eclipse government website, my bad

Edited May 15, 2019 by Wifye

[Astrox]

6 hours ago, Randyrandul said:

If you change the name of the roles and shift them slightly you are already describing our current plan. As the faction is already in game and being built upon a server suggestion seems slightly odd. If you want to be a part of helping to mold the government put in an application. 

There's a few things significantly wrong this this;

1. The only job open is bureau of licensing HR, I don't see how I'd have a say in the future of the government.

2. The people should have a say in the way the government works, and without elected officials that's impossible.

3. The current system doesn't work, the government is under effective, and the only way to change this would be through a suggestion in my opinion.

Eventually the government's function should be completely autonomous however currently it's not, there's a lot of flaws and not only is it a waste of power, it's a waste of RP potential.

[Jbacon]

I feel that the government is doing okay with its current roles, and if you want to see change considering the faction has been created and is run by players, then join the faction, work your way to a trusted position, invest time and effort into it like the members that currently influence its development did. Then work to improve it. I personally don't see this suggestion going anywhere as it is clearly making ooc suggestions to an IC faction.

Best of luck though, and hopefully you join up and work with them and try to help develop it.

[Astrox]

On 5/15/2019 at 3:50 PM, Jbacon said:

I feel that the government is doing okay with its current roles, and if you want to see change considering the faction has been created and is run by players, then join the faction, work your way to a trusted position, invest time and effort into it like the members that currently influence its development did. Then work to improve it. I personally don't see this suggestion going anywhere as it is clearly making ooc suggestions to an IC faction.

Best of luck though, and hopefully you join up and work with them and try to help develop it.

I do definitely understand where you're coming from however understand that the statue of a state is formed by a federal body, as this is an individual server and a game - there is no federal body and creating one would cause a stupid amount of stress and effort. As it's a faction and barely a government, there is no way to counter their current actions - I can't join in HR as a intern in the Bureau of Licensing and expect to have any say in the future of the government.

Creating a government without a plan or at least an efficiency program is incredibly impetus as all you are doing is building a path leading to a brick wall. The government needs more to do, and the government needs to be constitutional, elected and most importantly autonomous.

The biggest issue right now is the autonomy of the government - it needs to be able to move on regardless of who is in power, but right now that is not happening. This server comes at least as a second priority to everyone, and that's more then expected as people have lives - however there should of been a plan so there is smooth sailing once the government is put into motion.

I'm not expecting the government to reform today like bread and butter, however I do firmly believe that the people who are currently organizing this reformation (which I know /is/ happening) are not really built for it. Which is not a dig at them at all, I respect the effort that they have put in so far - however I just believe that the government is a very fast paced thing regardless, and when there is a matter as significant as this, it should be done in a matter of days. Personally - I have reformed governments much larger then this in the span of a week, which yes does include sleepless nights, however to ensure a happy playerbase, and to ensure that the intention of the server and of the faction itself is actually being displayed, it's essential.

[Jbacon]

@Astrox
As I stated, the government is run by the commissioners. Which are Ballin by Nature, and Harmdone, (Both high ranking members of the Admin team, as high as they get actually).

The faction was created in order to give a more civilian player base to the community. Now coming here and complaining that its not doing something... or that it needs a "reform" when it is such a young faction is both not necessary nor is it constructive. 

The government I doubt will ever be elected officials, and if it is, I believe that criminals with oh... lets say 100 felony imprisonments wouldn't have the right to vote, (as in RL they would be in jail for 100 lifetimes) Meaning only the PD, MD, DOC, Bayview, LSC, DCC, and a select few other players would have the appropriate requirements to vote. Secondly those voting, incase you haven't noticed, this is a game and everyone likes to troll. 

There are members in the government faction working hard to create it, this stuff doesn't just pop up overnight. I have been in this community for over 15months, and looking at yours you have been here for less then 2. As I said, if your looking to help develop the faction, join it as an intern and work within the faction, earn the respect of those that created it and have dedicated hours to it. I know a couple have put more hours into creating that faction then others have in the entire community. Its the same as any faction, you start at the bottom and work your way up.... Example: PD, join as an applicant, complete training become a cadet, serve time and training become a PO I, time and training, PO 2, more time and training, and it continues, each rank takes more time, and different trainings to progress, as I said ive been here 15months in the PD faction on my main, and am at the rank of captain... so expecting to get to the top in a week just because you have ideas.... is not how it will work.

Join the faction, help it grow and change.

[Astrox]

2 hours ago, Jbacon said:

@Astrox
As I stated, the government is run by the commissioners. Which are Ballin by Nature, and Harmdone, (Both high ranking members of the Admin team, as high as they get actually).

The faction was created in order to give a more civilian player base to the community. Now coming here and complaining that its not doing something... or that it needs a "reform" when it is such a young faction is both not necessary nor is it constructive. 

The government I doubt will ever be elected officials, and if it is, I believe that criminals with oh... lets say 100 felony imprisonments wouldn't have the right to vote, (as in RL they would be in jail for 100 lifetimes) Meaning only the PD, MD, DOC, Bayview, LSC, DCC, and a select few other players would have the appropriate requirements to vote. Secondly those voting, incase you haven't noticed, this is a game and everyone likes to troll. 

There are members in the government faction working hard to create it, this stuff doesn't just pop up overnight. I have been in this community for over 15months, and looking at yours you have been here for less then 2. As I said, if your looking to help develop the faction, join it as an intern and work within the faction, earn the respect of those that created it and have dedicated hours to it. I know a couple have put more hours into creating that faction then others have in the entire community. Its the same as any faction, you start at the bottom and work your way up.... Example: PD, join as an applicant, complete training become a cadet, serve time and training become a PO I, time and training, PO 2, more time and training, and it continues, each rank takes more time, and different trainings to progress, as I said ive been here 15months in the PD faction on my main, and am at the rank of captain... so expecting to get to the top in a week just because you have ideas.... is not how it will work.

Join the faction, help it grow and change.

Okay so what I'm gathering from this is; you have such low expectations of the server's playerbase you think they can't handle basic civilian RP.

Saying that this post isn't constructive makes no sense, it literally is the definition of constructive as I have given feedback on the faction on how to develop it to a point where it is immersive, efficient and supplies ample RP.

I'm not going to argue with you, as clearly that's what you want.

[Jbacon]

@Astrox

As I stated earlier.

The faction has been founded, any changes in its structure, development are all IC and must be treated that way. Same as any other faction. Only OOC stuff that should be brought up would be concerning scripting and server support, not governmental structure reforms.

I was not here to argue but rather bring light to the points you had mentioned. and explain how other factions grow and develop. 

I hold everyone in high regard but based on experience I know that people don't take certain things seriously... interacting with police, medics or gov't officials, treat it like a joke, so to expect an election to be a good representation of who would be the best to lead would be a poor assumption. That and with players coming and going via their own discression or via rule breaks, having someone who on an alt receives monthly/bi monthly punishments would not be a good plan as it would cause the gov't to end up with similar issues as weazle is unfortunately experiencing at this time.

[Jasmine]

All I can say here, is if you want people to believe the government and its agencies are effective and not corrupt as all get out, be more transparent.

I get RP, and I get having to ask to figure certain things out.

But...taxes, housing markets, welfare, government structure and positions, legal systems, business decisions (read: government openings of general stores for public ownership) etc etc. are all public knowledge in the real world. Not hidden in the minds of magical entities who create the systems and mechanisms civilians live by.

Make things more obvious, communicate with the community, stop creating (or knock down) barriers for the newer population.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jasmine

[Jbacon]

@Jasmine I would like to state all the information your requesting is IC information and 90% can be gained via the Government website. The government is run by players and is managed via IC means.

Before speaking out against them, I would look into some research on the IC website that the government faction hosts.

As for the implications of the stores that is ooc as it is strictly a development item and was introduced by developers to increase opportunities for more players. The stores have always existed its not like they went and created the stores, all they did was made it so that the stores can be own'd by players rather then NPCs.

If you want transparency in your government requesting it OOC aint gonna do it, talk to a government official in person or email them icly and talk to them about it.

[Astrox]

4 minutes ago, Jbacon said:

@Jasmine I would like to state all the information your requesting is IC information and 90% can be gained via the Government website. The government is run by players and is managed via IC means.

Before speaking out against them, I would look into some research on the IC website that the government faction hosts.

As for the implications of the stores that is ooc as it is strictly a development item and was introduced by developers to increase opportunities for more players. The stores have always existed its not like they went and created the stores, all they did was made it so that the stores can be own'd by players rather then NPCs.

If you want transparency in your government requesting it OOC aint gonna do it, talk to a government official in person or email them icly and talk to them about it.

I now work for the government, and let me clear some things up for you.

1. No one was speaking out AGAINST the government, it's a suggestion.

2. There is a A LOT that is kept away from the public right now which I can't disclose.

3. There is essentially nothing about the political future of the state on the government forums or anywhere else for that matter.

90% of this post was made out of my ignorance, however, there is a lot being kept secret.

[Jbacon]

@Astrox grats on joining the faction. And tbh look at governments in RL, they don't share everything, there is a shit ton of secrets and confidential information so yea... anyways I think the issues should be handled icly concerning the changes and growth of the faction.

[Jasmine]

1 hour ago, Jbacon said:

@Astrox grats on joining the faction. And tbh look at governments in RL, they don't share everything, there is a shit ton of secrets and confidential information so yea... anyways I think the issues should be handled icly concerning the changes and growth of the faction.

No this is an OOC issue. We live and grow in our home countries and are educated in schools about the way things work. It is inherent knowledge, and when you need knowledge there are libraries, lawyers, etc etc to turn to. 

This is an RP server, and basic information about taxes and welfare and housing and general stores magically appearing for sale should be easily referenced and learned about before even stepping foot in the city. It should be quickly and easily found for the average player walking into the server. Not hidden.

You guys that have been here forever have zero ability to hold empathy for new players. I simply asked for more accessible information on how the government works, and instead you get mad at me. Typical response. 

I've played here 2 months and have no clue what you are talking about with this gov website with tax and welfare info?? Or info on how businesses are declared. 

I mean when I first logged in I got yelled at for asking how to heal myself in disc. Told to ask ICly, because apparently eating a sandwich is something my character didn't know how to do. Extreme example, but you get the point. There should be some things that are told to a new player on day 1.

(Housing (rentals), parking lot, Basic jobs, taxes, welfare, Mors, speeding Fn tickets, Eating and drinking, etc.)

And when a player needs the info, other things should be easy to find.

(businesses, loans, Gov functions (which I still don't know about), buying houses etc.)

 

[Jasmine]

I am sorry, I have to add to this. 

Another point here is who do we even ask? Do you know how long it took me to understand how gas stations work? If you want to say we need to make this an IC issue, then you need to explain how I would even BEGIN to find that info or make a change ICly? I have no idea who the government entities are, and all the info Ive gained on how to buy houses, buy cars, how my taxes get deducted, how business taxes are done, etc etc etc have been answered by scouring the forums anyway!

And I can show you examples where very well established members of the community still have no idea how things work. 

I can ask until I am blue in the face, but when 98% of the server doesn't know, RP aint gonna help.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Jasmine

[Jbacon]

housing = ic, parking lot = ic, basic jobs (there is a guide) taxes there is a announcement, welfare there is an announcement, Mors = ic, Speeding tickets.... come on you join an RP server and expect to play GTA Online?... eating & Drinking was announced months ago... and ummm come on some basic understanding goes a long way.

Did you read the guides? I assume based on your response you must of glanced at them but paid little heed.

Businesses, loans and Government functions are all IC. Buy houses is IC also. So my advice is ask people in character, we all figured it out via IC means, so why cant a new player... Yes I am all for helping new players and often take them around the city give them a tour and often even give em money to buy a car.

Now there are ic avenues to gain your information... look at the DCC guided tours?

Okay, for actions if you look closely then you see a notification pop up at the top of your screen telling you how to do it.... gas station as you so pointed out, you pull in and get a notification at the top of your screen telling you the command. 

Buying cars, houses is IC. Find a seller, go to a car dealer, go to one of the used car markets (all of which is IC) Taxes was announced and can easily be asked of a majority of players who have been here more then a couple weeks.

and stating 98% of the server doesn't know how to buy a car... yet everyone has one.... or a house yet a ton of people have em… and taxes... do you understand how you are taxed in real life? chances are you don't have a complete understanding of your countrys taxation system either so to expect to understand and be spoonfed the information here is unrealistic. If you want information, go speak to someone at city hall about it.

Perhaps you should look for people with a bit more knowledge about the city then approaching other new players... look for the people that have been in the city a while and understand how it works both ic and ooc….

If they gave everyone every bit of information when you joined I can assure you that it wouldn't make a difference to 98% of the players as the majority don't pay heed to the rules let alone server information. 

The government website has a link here on the main page of the eclipse forums.... look in the ic portion... as to the government entities... go to city hall if you actually want to know who they are.

Businesses are registered on the gov't website, for the public to see.... as to the creation of more that is strictly development and is strickly ooc until taken ownership by someone (whom everyone had a chance to get a store if they tried and had the money)

I have been here 16 months... and still learn stuff that is the perk of it. If you ever get the chance to play another player based economic structural game then you will see how complex it is... I have one game ive been playing for 12 years.... and I learn something new every-time I log into it.... the economic structure here is a rather simple but effective one, and is easily understood.

if you want to learn more ooc message me on discord im Bacon on the eclipse one... easy to find. and I can answer your questions there as to not congest this suggestion any further.

[Randul]

Thank you for your suggestions and opinions, the majority of the information discussed will be released once we have finalised it, we appreciate your patience. 

[Linden]

Jasmine and Astrox both make good points about very little information being available in the Public Government forum, all that exists is the Penal Codes and Business licensing. To find out a lot of IC information you need to ask somebody who knows or read an OOC thread on the forums. The only Press Release was posted in January.

More active Government presence and public information would be beneficial. AFAIK I can't even see who the members of City Council are without checking their forum usergroup. Seems Randul is taking all of this into account though which is fantastic.

[Astrox]

3 minutes ago, Linden said:

Jasmine and Astrox both make good points about very little information being available in the Public Government forum, all that exists is the Penal Codes and Business licensing. To find out a lot of IC information you need to ask somebody who knows or read an OOC thread on the forums. The only Press Release was posted in January.

More active Government presence and public information would be beneficial. AFAIK I can't even see who the members of City Council are without checking their forum usergroup. Seems Randul is taking all of this into account though which is fantastic.

Basically,

 

There isn't information to give so there is no released information.

There isn't a large team because of what I'm assuming is trust issues, and rightly so - but it's moving slowly.

[Jasmine]

5 hours ago, Jbacon said:

housing = ic, parking lot = ic, basic jobs (there is a guide) taxes there is a announcement, welfare there is an announcement, Mors = ic, Speeding tickets.... come on you join an RP server and expect to play GTA Online?... eating & Drinking was announced months ago... and ummm come on some basic understanding goes a long way.

Did you read the guides? I assume based on your response you must of glanced at them but paid little heed.

Businesses, loans and Government functions are all IC. Buy houses is IC also. So my advice is ask people in character, we all figured it out via IC means, so why cant a new player... Yes I am all for helping new players and often take them around the city give them a tour and often even give em money to buy a car.

Now there are ic avenues to gain your information... look at the DCC guided tours?

Okay, for actions if you look closely then you see a notification pop up at the top of your screen telling you how to do it.... gas station as you so pointed out, you pull in and get a notification at the top of your screen telling you the command. 

Buying cars, houses is IC. Find a seller, go to a car dealer, go to one of the used car markets (all of which is IC) Taxes was announced and can easily be asked of a majority of players who have been here more then a couple weeks.

and stating 98% of the server doesn't know how to buy a car... yet everyone has one.... or a house yet a ton of people have em… and taxes... do you understand how you are taxed in real life? chances are you don't have a complete understanding of your countrys taxation system either so to expect to understand and be spoonfed the information here is unrealistic. If you want information, go speak to someone at city hall about it.

Perhaps you should look for people with a bit more knowledge about the city then approaching other new players... look for the people that have been in the city a while and understand how it works both ic and ooc….

If they gave everyone every bit of information when you joined I can assure you that it wouldn't make a difference to 98% of the players as the majority don't pay heed to the rules let alone server information. 

The government website has a link here on the main page of the eclipse forums.... look in the ic portion... as to the government entities... go to city hall if you actually want to know who they are.

Businesses are registered on the gov't website, for the public to see.... as to the creation of more that is strictly development and is strickly ooc until taken ownership by someone (whom everyone had a chance to get a store if they tried and had the money)

I have been here 16 months... and still learn stuff that is the perk of it. If you ever get the chance to play another player based economic structural game then you will see how complex it is... I have one game ive been playing for 12 years.... and I learn something new every-time I log into it.... the economic structure here is a rather simple but effective one, and is easily understood.

if you want to learn more ooc message me on discord im Bacon on the eclipse one... easy to find. and I can answer your questions there as to not congest this suggestion any further.

I have noticed that almost every post you make is contrary to the idea, and often you accuse the OP of wanting to play GTOA.

I play a civilian full time, have never robbed or shot anyone, nor do I carry a weapon.

You are also extremely dismissive, derisive, and condescending to the people you are replying to. 

You also use hyperbole consistently (like "everyone wants to play GTAO") then call others out for the same. (I did not say 98% of people don't know how to buy cars, I mentioned businesses, specifically business taxes, which even Chuck could not explain to me)

Based on the above, this will be the last time I reply to your comments. You cant possibly disagree with every single word I say. Which leads me to believe you are just argumentative by nature, and not willing to see other peoples perspective. 

[Jbacon]

You had stated 98% of the server didn't know.
Either way, I feel it is important that players know the difference between ic information and ooc information. Most of the information being requested on this thread should be requested via IC means. Email, going to city hall, calling them.... any of these would work.

As to the comments about public releases... I can not speak to the Government (city hall) but I can assure you that the LSPD makes frequent ones.https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewforum.php?f=43 

You can find all the public ones there.

I apologize if I came off rude or annoyed, it was not my intention, but feel it is crucial to the success and a players experience to be able to separate IC from OOC. otherwise ooc tensions will cause IC issues and vice versa, or carry over of knowledge from one character to another.

[Jasmine]

1 hour ago, Jbacon said:

You had stated 98% of the server didn't know.
Either way, I feel it is important that players know the difference between ic information and ooc information. Most of the information being requested on this thread should be requested via IC means. Email, going to city hall, calling them.... any of these would work.

As to the comments about public releases... I can not speak to the Government (city hall) but I can assure you that the LSPD makes frequent ones.https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/viewforum.php?f=43 

You can find all the public ones there.

I apologize if I came off rude or annoyed, it was not my intention, but feel it is crucial to the success and a players experience to be able to separate IC from OOC. otherwise ooc tensions will cause IC issues and vice versa, or carry over of knowledge from one character to another.

I understand your point, and completely, 100% agree.

I think where we disagree is on what "knowledge" a person (character) would inherently have upon log in. In my opinion, things that an adult would already have knowledge about IRL, should be given to the player ahead of time, particularly those things that hinder/annoy/confuse/take-up-admin-time/irritate/cause-people-to-leave/etc. during the first few weeks of the players life in the city.

Not sure how long it has been since you were new to eclipse or GTA roleplay, but it is Fn brutal! My experience was absolutely aweful...ASIDE from not knowing what I was doing, and trying to learn how to RP.... A little bit of help on basic things would have been truly amazing. 

Things like:

Do I even need a house? (should be obvious, but as you know most new players actually don't)

How do I heal/eat/drink, do I need to drink?

Where's my money go when I get paid?

Do I need cash for haircuts/food/cab rides etc.?

Where can I find work (side jobs) and how do I get to them?

Where do I go to sleep if I have no house?

Where can I park my car if I am homeless?

When do I really need a car? Is there public transportation?

How do I get a drivers license? Do I need a drivers license?

There's welfare? How does that work? Does it stop if I work a side job etc?

How am I taxed (granted this is something a lot of 18-25 year old's don't know, and some never figure out)

 

I think all of these things is knowledge which should be, and would be known by an adult, especially one living in an inner city. 

I am more than happy to be part of the solution, and not the problem, so I asked to make a new citizens guide. Waiting to see if admins will let me, and what information they feel should/could be added, and what they feel should be learned ICly. 

There really is a lot to put up with as a new citizen, and this basic info could go a long way in smoothing the transition. And maybe even encourage CivRP, and good RP in general. I know when I first joined, I acted inappropriately out of pure frustration at the new player experience. Most notably, freaking out in the PD because I had a warrant for my arrest for speeding tickets I was too poor to pay in the 3 days time limit.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2019 by Jasmine

[Jbacon]

it has been 16months since I was a new player... and when I was some of the things above were even harder to understand, there are guides in place here https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/forum/51-faq-server-guides/

As anyone that is joining the server now is experiencing long waits for acceptance there is plenty of time to review them, yes there are somethings missing, but a lot of it should be ic information gained. Rping as an adult that has lived in the city makes partial sense but if your new to the RP and the community then your likely going to struggle more so then someone whos been RPing for years.  

There are guides already in-place for work, and there is a guide for server commands along with the f6 menu.

Anyways I wish you good luck with approval for your new player guide.

[Randul]

9 minutes ago, Jasmine said:

I am more than happy to be part of the solution, and not the problem, so I asked to make a new citizens guide. Waiting to see if admins will let me, and what information they feel should/could be added, and what they feel should be learned ICly. 

I urge you to make the guide, it will be edited by staff as they seem fit. The majority of the best guides I've seen are from someone who just wants to help, take the leap. 

https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/forum/51-faq-server-guides/

Just place WIP in the title and you should be good to go, just avoid in character information such as where are the drug labs / chop shops.