How to make Law Enforcement Vehicles Fair and Balanced

[Demonmit1]

6 minutes ago, EimaTrG said:

Realistically just add some sort of timer while pulling out a vehicle even if it's 1-3 min because it takes time for the vehicle to be brought out

so, this isnt possible for law enforcement to realistically work with. LEO commonly use /delcruiser to delete/dump bulk illegal items seized, especially once a players illegal locker gets full. Detectives regularly have to use /delcruiser to clear-out inventories after getting evidence recorded. so having a blanked timer on just spawning in any car every single time would make a lot of PD work and detective work unnecessarily tedious.

the core of the recommendation is, if LEO parks a damaged cruiser, they have a timer to respawn that same model. thats what the suggestion is.

[Demonmit1]

On 10/5/2024 at 5:36 AM, SkuLLar said:

This suggestion for "balance" is misplaced. Criminals should outsmart PD through intelligence and skill, not artificial limitations. PD should always have the upper hand initially. It's up to criminals to plan how to level the playing field, but the core dynamic remains: avoid PD at all costs or have a solid plan to escape.

so if by skill and planning me and a team manage to disable a highspeed jug, either by prepping spikes to pop tires or getting repeated successful pits on it to be damaged, while avoiding damage to ourselves, law enforcement should have the upper hand to instantly despawn and respawn the car at full health to rejoin the chase?

when will the crim update be where we can do the same? /s lol

On 10/5/2024 at 5:36 AM, SkuLLar said:

The idea of timeouts for damaged PD vehicles is irrelevant. Their resources are vast, and minor setbacks won't impact their overall effectiveness.

its incredibly relevant. if i know a specific officer is quite skilled with a specific vehicle, targeting them while evading to disable their vehicle would have an overall effective impact of the chase. they'd be forced to use a different vehicle to instantly rejoin the chase. Them being able to simply delete and respawn their car with no downsides and rejoin the pursuit isnt fair.

If we shoot down a helicopter, why can air-1 just go respawn a new one?

 

On 10/5/2024 at 5:36 AM, SkuLLar said:

Criminals should focus on avoiding PD entirely. If they end up in a situation with PD, it's usually their own fault for facing such a powerful entity

this is a really bad argument. if a crims goal should be avoiding PD at all costs, who will PD RP with? this is still a video game at the end of the day... lol

Edited October 9, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

On 10/5/2024 at 11:36 AM, SkuLLar said:

 PD should always have the upper hand initially. 

I would actually say in most cases its the other way around. or like a bell curve, swapping from crim advantage, to LEO advantage and then kinda levelling off depending on skill.

In most interactions crims have the advantage of starting in a vehicle of their choosing, with weapons of their choosing against what is most likely at best going to be an stx or a scout which are middling patrol vehicles that can sort of keep up but at the same time are easily outclassed by common crim vehicles. the crim has a massive upper hand here.

A timer then begins as to how fast LEOs can get highspeeds/air/offroad out and joining the pursuit. ((HERE)) if the crim cant lose the pursuers before the specialised units arrive, they are now at a heavy disadvantage as LEOs have just played their hand and it should be designed to directly counter their initial advantage (highspeed/bikes for fast evasions, Kamacho/BF for offroads, Air for both.) this is when LEOs have the upper hand.

And this is where it sort of levels off and is down to skill and strategy and the ball is mostly in the crims court. they choose where the evasion goes, how risky their driving should be, they can set up ambushes, they can set up bike drops, do they take tires, do they deploy jammers or stingers. 

Now where i put that green marker, thats where the crims chances for successfully evading just by driving is highest. Past that point, you are increasingly reliant on a plan B, a bike drop, a shootout, a swap, a block, something more than just driving around fast.

Frankly if you go past that point, dont have a plan B, get beat and then complain, you have no one to blame but yourself.

[Demonmit1]

1:48 in, ID 199 is driving a buffalo Cruiser, and gets totaled due to a collision (its not visible in the video cause of a crop, but his vehicle went from orange to red light and was smoking.)

3:21, ID 199 is back in the same cruiser fully repaired. (bad example cause of a reset, but my point is that from 1:48 to 3:06, ID 199 limped his cruiser back to the nearest station, despawned it, and spawned it fresh. in just over 60 seconds, he's got his same vehicle back, fully repaired, and back in the chase)

this is specifically what im wanting to prevent with this suggestion. it would be more balanced if he got a different model cruiser and rejoined.

7:05 Murphy restarts the chase with his buffalo, but after taking damage at 7:53, he splits from the chase, and despawns that car to grab a highspeed Jug. totally fine and a very valid choice, and wouldnt not be affected whatsoever by this suggestion. he turned in a damaged cruiser, and got a new different model to rejoin the chase with. thats what should happen.

the other thing im hoping that would slowly change if this suggestion gets implemented, is to discourage extremely aggressive ramming from PD that you can see at 8:53. LEO's using their vehicle to aggressively ram their car into yours, using as a weapon, with no regard to their own safety or equipment, shouldn't be the norm, and should be discouraged. punishing LEO for taking risky moves that heavily damage their car should be a thing, but there is currently no cost or downside to it, so many officers use their vehicles as weapons, destroying their car in attempt to destroy yours.
 

-----------------------------
a VAST majority of my POV in this second video is all valid and very effective PIT maneuvers. I've just driven the glendale so much as Billy i know how to compensate. others werent so lucky.

3:18 ID 181 in an unmarked buffalo with no pushbar slammed into the pink Picador so hard they perma stalled themselves. Why are cops using their vehicles as a battering ram? because they have no incentives not to.

4:09 why has a cop so massively crumpled their $400k+ STX using it as a weapon against $2000-$4000 scrap cars? because they have no incentives not to.

 

[Quietthecutie]

26 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

1:48 in, ID 199 is driving a buffalo Cruiser, and gets totaled due to a collision (its not visible in the video cause of a crop, but his vehicle went from orange to red light and was smoking.)

3:21, ID 199 is back in the same cruiser fully repaired. (bad example cause of a reset, but my point is that from 1:48 to 3:06, ID 199 limped his cruiser back to the nearest station, despawned it, and spawned it fresh. in just over 60 seconds, he's got his same vehicle back, fully repaired, and back in the chase)

this is specifically what im wanting to prevent with this suggestion. it would be more balanced if he got a different model cruiser and rejoined.

7:05 Murphy restarts the chase with his buffalo, but after taking damage at 7:53, he splits from the chase, and despawns that car to grab a highspeed Jug. totally fine and a very valid choice, and wouldnt not be affected whatsoever by this suggestion. he turned in a damaged cruiser, and got a new different model to rejoin the chase with. thats what should happen.

the other thing im hoping that would slowly change if this suggestion gets implemented, is to discourage extremely aggressive ramming from PD that you can see at 8:53. LEO's using their vehicle to aggressively ram their car into yours, using as a weapon, with no regard to their own safety or equipment, shouldn't be the norm, and should be discouraged. punishing LEO for taking risky moves that heavily damage their car should be a thing, but there is currently no cost or downside to it, so many officers use their vehicles as weapons, destroying their car in attempt to destroy yours.
 

-----------------------------
a VAST majority of my POV in this second video is all valid and very effective PIT maneuvers. I've just driven the glendale so much as Billy i know how to compensate. others werent so lucky.

3:18 ID 181 in an unmarked buffalo with no pushbar slammed into the pink Picador so hard they perma stalled themselves. Why are cops using their vehicles as a battering ram? because they have no incentives not to.

4:09 why has a cop so massively crumpled their $400k+ STX using it as a weapon against $2000-$4000 scrap cars? because they have no incentives not to.

 

dont take this the wrong way, but this is cherry picking pursuits to suit your narrative. this is in no way indicative as to how most pursuits play out. particularly the second clip which is a clown car show in the middle of the city.

I admire the craftsmanship here but ultimately it dosent change my previous argument, the chase had gone on for a long time and the strategy you choose was just to drive around really fast (and really well btw, good job) but at that point without any further strategy, any drops, any jammers, any blocks the odds are firmly stacked against your favor, and it has nothing to do with an LEO swapping out a vehicle. the odds at this point are supposed to be heavily against you. i really dont see a problem here....

Edited October 10, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Demonmit1]

18 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

I admire the craftsmanship here but ultimately it dosent change my previous argument, the chase had gone on for a long time and the strategy you choose was just to drive around really fast

oh yeah, no i agree with what you said above. that was more just a general comment providing some recent footage for context. i have months of twitch clips and footage of all my chases, where whats happened in the second video is very common.

you're 100% right, crims need to develop strategy to evade successfully. just driving fast doesnt work most of the time, you have to be smart. driving fast only works if you're really good at it and you get lucky at the same time.

PD has a current strategy of using their cruisers as a batting ram to stop a chase at all costs, including destroying their own vehicle. thats one of the big things that would end up getting discouraged and scriptly punished with this suggestion. 

forcing cops to wait to respawn a car that got damaged isnt some magic bullet that will make winning a chase easier in every way possible. the point is to allow crims to have other strategies than spending millions on spare cars or resorting to a gunfight. if a cop disables my car, i lose. if i disable a cops car, they're back in seconds ready to keep going with the same car.

Edited October 10, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Requiem]

5 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

forcing cops to wait to respawn a car that got damaged isnt some magic bullet that will make winning a chase easier in every way possible. the point is to allow crims to have other strategies than spending millions on spare cars or resorting to a gunfight. if a cop disables my car, i lose. if i disable a cops car, they're back in seconds ready to keep going with the same car.

I think you are painting a false narrative here. If you part of 90% of criminals that Law enforcement chases on a daily basis driving a drag, niobe, issi sport, paragon or jugular, if the criminal finds a way to disable the LEO high speed vehicle (PD Jugular for instance) normally the only vehicle left that will have any chance of keeping up at that point to maintain visual is going to be the helicopter, and any experienced or skilled criminal driver will be able to lose that in less than 60 seconds (and thats being generous). If you disabled the LEO high speed over by El Burro (Garbage area) for example, it would take a minimum of 1.5 to 2 minutes for them to make the round trip to a precinct to swap it out for a new one and get back to the same area, and if you are smart about it as the criminal, you can maneuver in a way where its difficult to get the LEO jugular back to the front of the pursuit line behind you again, and by that time, you will have made the heli and other units lose visual of you and have gotten away. 

You talk about balance, but its a double edge sword in most instances. Yes you will have pursuits of scrap cars or mid tier vehicles at times, but most often, criminals are driving the high end meta sports cars with speaker mods that allow them to go a constant 240 where little to no PD vehicles can actually keep up. If this suggested change were to be implemented, you would simply be creating a new meta for criminals to just take out the tires of the high speed and giving the evading criminal and instant win as there would be no counter on LEOs side. This side effect would obviously be unhealthy for the server and would demotivate law enforcement from wanting to participate in most pursuits if it involved any standard meta crim vehicle. I would suggest looking at the actual success vs failure rates for law enforcement pursuits before pushing for balance changes rather than wanting to act on situational circumstances or just your own experiences. 

[Demonmit1]

9 hours ago, Requiem said:

If you part of 90% of criminals that Law enforcement chases on a daily basis driving a drag, niobe, issi sport, paragon or jugular

drag: $4 million
Niobe: $280 USD that was only available to purchase once for 1 weekend months ago
Issi sport: $75 USD only
Paragon: $1.9 million
Jug: $1.5 million

90% of the player base in no way has millions of dollars of cars or all bitcoin only cars. PD has a equal or better solution to each of those vehicles except the Niobe.

 

9 hours ago, Requiem said:

take out the tires of the high speed and giving the evading criminal and instant win as there would be no counter on LEOs side.

there is a counter? just go wait in line for a repair at one of the three mechanic shops if you really need that cruiser and you're the only person on duty that can use one. the lockout would be player based, not faction based. if officer 1 parks their damaged cruiser, only officer 1 cant pull it out again without waiting on the timer. officer 2 can still pull out their cruiser just fine.

[Quietthecutie]

1 minute ago, Demonmit1 said:

90% of the player base in no way has millions of dollars of cars or all bitcoin only cars.

its not that difficult to save up that amount of scratch, either by staying legal for a bit and working a legal job, working at burgershot, chopping or just by cooking drugs in an RV. on my crim i was easily able to rack up 2-300k a week. which means if i kept my nose clean thats a maxed jug in about 2 months of gameplay. One of the most powerful and meta cars in the server is available to anyone willing to put the time and effort in. 2 months.

And this server is old at this point, most crims (particularly experienced ones) have enough skin in the game to have multiple meta cars at their disposal.

12 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

there is a counter? just go wait in line for a repair at one of the three mechanic shops if you really need that cruiser and you're the only person on duty that can use one. the lockout would be player based, not faction based. if officer 1 parks their damaged cruiser, only officer 1 cant pull it out again without waiting on the timer. officer 2 can still pull out their cruiser just fine.

Feel like we are again, muddying the suggestion here, which does not include popped tires as a reason to have a cooldown. if a jugs tires get popped and they get it back to the station without redlighting the engine, they should be able to pull it out again, no?

[Requiem]

2 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

drag: $4 million
Niobe: $280 USD that was only available to purchase once for 1 weekend months ago
Issi sport: $75 USD only
Paragon: $1.9 million
Jug: $1.5 million

90% of the player base in no way has millions of dollars of cars or all bitcoin only cars. PD has a equal or better solution to each of those vehicles except the Niobe.

You can assume that if you like, but I am telling you from statistics and experiencing the pursuit of these vehicles on a daily basis, that PD most often chases these meta vehicles. I have been in PD for over 3.5 years, so I have enough experience and data to back it up. As to your last point regarding PD having an equal or better solution, I would be happy to set up an experiment where we give you a PD scout or Buffalo and have you chase a paragon or issi sport and see how you fair against it if you believe the other vehicles are equal or better. 

2 hours ago, Demonmit1 said:

there is a counter? just go wait in line for a repair at one of the three mechanic shops if you really need that cruiser and you're the only person on duty that can use one. the lockout would be player based, not faction based. if officer 1 parks their damaged cruiser, only officer 1 cant pull it out again without waiting on the timer. officer 2 can still pull out their cruiser just fine.

I'm not sure you read my explanation or understood it. If someone evades in a niobe for example, no vehicle PD has can go 240 and keep up with it. The best option available is the PD jugular and helicopter combination. If the jugular is taken out of commission due to popped tired or whatever else for even 2 minutes, it is near guaranteed that the pursuit is lost if the criminal driver has any kind of skill and knows how to lose the helicopter, which most that evade do since they have been server long enough to understand those strategies. 

I am mentioning these points as I believe that no change or "balancing" is required, and your suggestion would be an unhealthy change to the server causing frustration and a meta shift for criminals that would allow them to easily win nearly all of their chases if they are evading in a meta vehicle. I agree with your sentiment that it would be nice to see more variety in the server of vehicles used, including from law enforcement, but thats not the server environment we are in. Law enforcement factions are a reactionary force. If criminals only drive meta sports vehicles consistently, law enforcement will respond by only driving the vehicles that have a chance of keeping up with them. 

[Demonmit1]

29 minutes ago, Requiem said:

You can assume that if you like, but I am telling you from statistics and experiencing the pursuit of these vehicles on a daily basis, that PD most often chases these meta vehicles.

i mean at this point its just going in circles and I've allready addressed that issue here: 

 

[Timmaayy]

Just make it so that officers have to repair their vehicles out of their own money. If they park a cruiser and respawn it, then it comes out damaged still until it's taken to a mechanic shop.

[Bala]

2 hours ago, Timmaayy said:

Just make it so that officers have to repair their vehicles out of their own money. If they park a cruiser and respawn it, then it comes out damaged still until it's taken to a mechanic shop.

If they wanna be increasing the cap to 10k an hour, I'll repair my own vehicle Timmy, say less 

[Cup]

I like the thought but the reality is.... this would instantly turn every other pursuit into. " pursuit starts,...... high speed shows up..... high speed tires are instantly taken" rinse repeat

 

 

[addybeta]

58 minutes ago, Cup said:

I like the thought but the reality is.... this would instantly turn every other pursuit into. " pursuit starts,...... high speed shows up..... high speed tires are instantly taken" rinse repeat

 

 

We all know that if the highspeed’s tyres are taken the evading vehicle is getting shot, so no crim is instantly gonna take tyres everytime.

[Quietthecutie]

I just wanna point out once again, that tyres being a reason for a cooldown on a highspeed was not part of the OPs suggestion, which was related to the engine light going red. i dont know how we got here.

Edited October 15, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[addybeta]

My opinion is that tyres should be included, given the way that the response to such an action would be, it would be balanced. 
 

If a crim is evading and decides to take tyres on the high speed, they know that they are going to be shot at by 20+ units. So it would be a last resort type of thing.

[Quietthecutie]

8 minutes ago, addybeta said:

My opinion is that tyres should be included, given the way that the response to such an action would be, it would be balanced. 
 

If a crim is evading and decides to take tyres on the high speed, they know that they are going to be shot at by 20+ units. So it would be a last resort type of thing.

thats one side of the coin, the other is that the highspeed that just got its tires popped slows down and breaks off pursuit to go get a new set on. er go, they showed restraint and get rewarded for it. if they continue to pursue, and continue to get rinsed, then they will redline their cruiser and will have to wait longer.

Again, any way you slice it this would be a monumental change to pursuit mechanics on the server. so i would rather we do it incrementally, instead of going from 1st to 5th in one go.

Edited October 15, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[inorigj]

14 hours ago, Timmaayy said:

Just make it so that officers have to repair their vehicles out of their own money. If they park a cruiser and respawn it, then it comes out damaged still until it's taken to a mechanic shop.

If I remember correctly. This was an intended script that NBDY wanted to make back in the day. But the server didn't sync it so it wasn't possible.

 

Well. It's synced now! 

[inorigj]

9 hours ago, addybeta said:

My opinion is that tyres should be included, given the way that the response to such an action would be, it would be balanced. 

You've forgetting that. If you take the High speeds tyres. It's now harder to control.

It will now need to drive to the closest police station. Park and catch up to the chase.

And it's return to the police station depending on location. Will take a while, as it can't just full send it back anymore due to the missing wheels making it spin out.

The added time it takes for it to return to the station and come back balances it.

 

If another one show up almost instantly. That's not the same officer. That's another one that showed up because they requested help.

[IAmTurtle]

The amount of pursuits we loose on the daily is insane. If you can't beat us it really is almost a skill issue. Especially with me driving around. People use to loose us all the time in elegy retro customs and saltan rs which max out at 220 because they new how to drive. 

[Clank]

21 hours ago, IAmTurtle said:

The amount of pursuits we loose on the daily is insane. If you can't beat us it really is almost a skill issue. Especially with me driving around. People use to loose us all the time in elegy retro customs and saltan rs which max out at 220 because they new how to drive. 

People got too used to holding W to win, bike swapping, etc. 

Nobody wants to do any critical thinking while being chased. You either drive an insanely fast car until you crash then /report out of salt and get the pursuit reset or wait till you get to DOC for a report then itll be forced to be voided since you're already at DOC.

 

I remember when people could escape PD when PD had 811s, t20s and zentornos. I remember Collie evading in his Elegy Retro and getting away 5 times within a single day.

People just got lazy in chases and want the easy way to escape.

[Chubbyy]

+1 for swapping cars mid chase


I think if a crim cant refuel mid chase then they shouldnt be able to swap cars, if they need fuel in a chase, go to a gas station and refuel, if a tire gets shot out, jump  in a diff car with someone else or go to LSC and get it fixed.

a simple rule that states you can only Swap X amount of times could also work.

I love Evading when i did evade but as of late we get our tires shot just for going over a side walk or in the wrong direction of travel leaving no time for a real chase to happen as they (some people) just want the chase to finish before its even underway but thatsa diff issue on its own...


just a simple rule that states you can only take out a car X Amount of times and/or if its minimal like low fuel or a popped tire you need to refuel / go to LSC, it will add more RP for the mechs and also make the situation more intense as you need to wait while your car refuels. This is only for an active chase/situation. 
 

Edited October 22, 2024 by ItsChubby

[inorigj]

16 minutes ago, ItsChubby said:

I think if a crim cant refuel mid chase then they shouldnt be able to swap cars

You can refuel during a chase. the "remember its NRP to refuel during a chase" chat message that popped up was in reference to when you only had to turn your car off and hold O to refuel your car.

You could just roll threw the gas station and get like 6% more fuel. and then do that passing a few gas station and get up half your tank. now you need to get out and turn the car off and all that. so its not NRP anymore.

[Quietthecutie]

9 hours ago, Clank said:

People got too used to holding W to win, bike swapping, 

As much as i want to entertain OPs suggestion. This point is incredibly valid.

In this age of 240 supercars, LCs and drags being the meta we are now trying to shoehorn in ways to limit the single only realistic HSIU being deployed. How about we fairtrade a nerf to OP hold W vehicles in trade for this. Id be so down for that.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Quietthecutie