PD/SD Rules

[Jett_J]

Just now, Joaquin Guzman said:

See now this is the type of response we can work on instead of getting into a blatant emotions war.

Tbh I feel like these regularly programmed posts about PD/SD having a win mentality or "killing crim RP" are always due to emotions. Usually right after a crim takes an L in game and is mad

[Joaquin Guzman]

3 minutes ago, Kazjii said:

Balance though is not a one way street. Criminals have the upper-hand in setting up vehicle switches, planning ahead and ambushing cops, and being ready to try and catch LEOs off-guard. If that side of the scale gets too heavy, LEO needs to add more weight (in this case, more authority and power) to balance out the odds. Labs are not safe havens, if you want to race into Catfish with multiple cars and swerving into lanes, your actions will result in cops going into this "safe haven".

See I was talking about this with Silky very casually, I think there is definitely some good rules and maybe some more that can be suggested as well. I'm not saying anything to make anyone upset or mad it's more about getting opinion. There could potentially be a rule on "active shootouts' not allowing PD/SD to regen armor inside there vehicles and things like that balance each other out. Given it's 23-26k to get a 100 AP and cops can get it for free and its regen-able inside a faction loadout cruiser.  

[Joaquin Guzman]

1 minute ago, Jett_J said:

Tbh I feel like these regularly programmed posts about PD/SD having a win mentality or "killing crim RP" are always due to emotions. Usually right after a crim takes an L in game and is mad

Yeah that's why I tried to make it clear it wasn't to start a war, it was more about voice and people having the option to talk and get more perspective.

[ComradeCorbyn]

4 minutes ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

Like we said from the beginning and are still saying, this is a suggestion opened to personal opinions and experiences. This isn't a place to get defensive and turn this into emotion. It's a suggestion for a reason and I've been quite mindful of everyone thoughts. I don't recall any issues or instances that I have done things like this on purpose or of meaning. Then again, I am always with a supervisor due to being a trainee. Everybody knows things play into it, its a rule and logistics opinion we are looking for not and argument. 

That's all fine to have a discussion on these matters, but when you begin making bold statements about things you understand very little about then you open yourself up to significantly harsher criticism. Perhaps if you approach this issue with more passive analysis than "Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable." you would get some more constructive discussion and replies from those who represent and are responsible for a large amount of the policy in Law Enforcement factions.

[Zion Willard]

This was disabled via script.

[Joaquin Guzman]

Just now, ComradeCorbyn said:

That's all fine to have a discussion on these matters, but when you begin making bold statements about things you understand very little about then you open yourself up to significantly harsher criticism. Perhaps if you approach this issue with more passive analysis than "Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable." you would get some more constructive discussion and replies from those who represent and are responsible for a large amount of the policy in Law Enforcement factions.

I am open to discussion and debating, I'm not open to emotionally motivated attacks. (Which is what always shuts these type of threads down)

[ComradeCorbyn]

5 minutes ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

See now this is the type of response we can work on instead of getting into a blatant emotions war.

Almost seems like a parody how much of a 180 you are taking on your position on this matter now that you realize it's a little more complicated than your initial post made it out to be.

[Jett_J]

Just now, Joaquin Guzman said:

I am open to discussion and debating, I'm not open to emotionally motivated attacks. (Which is what always shuts these type of threads down)

If you want productive discussion maybe don't open the topic off with "Cops are really making the criminal life unplayable." lol. That definitely is gonna get some people defensive.

[ComradeCorbyn]

Just now, Joaquin Guzman said:

I am open to discussion and debating, I'm not open to emotionally motivated attacks. (Which is what always shuts these type of threads down)

You can say emotionally motivated attacks all you want, but it's really just a distraction from the fact that you actually have no basis to stand on in actual reply to these points. If you want a productive discussion do you really think your initial post was indicative of that? Seems pretty emotional to me buddy!

[Kazjii]

1 minute ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

 There could potentially be a rule on "active shootouts' not allowing PD/SD to regen armor inside there vehicles and things like that balance each other out. Given it's 23-26k to get a 100 AP and cops can get it for free and its regen-able inside a faction loadout cruiser.  

This is absolutely something that is not allowed unless you are a very small group of people in the LEO space. SED are the only ones in SD that have the ability to do that and that is ONLY when they have RP'd bring spare plates and replacing it. Thorough RP is required. And even with tedious RP requirements, it is not allowable during active shootouts, only when the situation has calmed and has come to no threat in the area/situation.

[Joaquin Guzman]

Just now, ComradeCorbyn said:

Almost seems like a parody how much of a 180 you are taking on your position on this matter now that you realize it's a little more complicated than your initial post made it out to be.

It wasn't like a mystery that there is deep roleplay into it which involves investigation and all the necessary work. It's almost like we said there is obviously things that play into it and the factor of the matter is some situations are very poor. There couldn't definitely be different scenarios for some situations. 

[Osborn]

Guys I just had a pursuit from a store robbery into sea lab and when we were looking for the guy a Kamacho came by and the occupants gave us shit for rolling labs

If you read this thread Kamacho, there was context!!

[SaltyPoiosn]

13 minutes ago, Kazjii said:

Criminals have the upper-hand in setting up vehicle switches, planning ahead and ambushing cops, and being ready to try and catch LEOs off-guard.

Though by default I would agree with what you said. I feel as though the way crim Rp naturally goes on this server, and without directly comparing with my other experiences on other RP games not just GTA. I would say that crims here don’t feel the need to plan and think ahead. Typically because the consequences are never really that terrible. We as crims are very aware that 3 hours in prison is not great, but it doesn’t feel like a massive consequence compared to games I’ve played. We’re 1 year is 24 OOC hours. So going back to your point of saying we have advantages. Though I don’t fully agree there, even if it were true using these to our advantage feels less rewarding as the consequences aren’t large enough in comparison. I understand we’ve gone a little off topic here but I think this all ties into the point of this conversation.
 

For example, when we killed Lewis Langley ICly the biggest punishment was a standard 3 hour sentence. If thats all I had been given. The reward would not have felt any greater than a 3 hour charge stacked bank robbery crime. 
 

My point is we are feeling hard done by purely because and as sad as this sounds, we as crims that have to interact with one another. Only ever really happen to talk and interact at labs and some server events, so when we have cops seemingly rolling labs it feels very cheap and we are left confused and to be honest a little salty. 

Edited June 11 by SaltyPoiosn

[Smoke1]

being neutral i understand how criminal's feel that leo's are "rolling labs" unfortunately they fail to realize SD/PD have an IC reason for doing so and need to be able to back up the reasoning. It could be a investigation or 911 calls there are countless reasons as to why a leo would be in the area.  There are over 15 rolling labs it would be hard for leo to know what's active and what's not. I believe most criminal's are miss informed and just see a leo in or around and think here they go rolling labs.  

[Joaquin Guzman]

2 minutes ago, ComradeCorbyn said:

You can say emotionally motivated attacks all you want, but it's really just a distraction from the fact that you actually have no basis to stand on in actual reply to these points. If you want a productive discussion do you really think your initial post was indicative of that? Seems pretty emotional to me buddy!

I am very calm! Like I said I'm not here to argue off the point, if you want to add those comments at the end that's your choice! 

[Joaquin Guzman]

In all fairness as well, PD has been the most notorious to raid a lab or be in a lab. I am in SD, I've said personally to admins that I like how strict the guidelines are regarding labs. I've never had an encounter in a lab with a SD detective, mostly PD.

[DoTo]

Stay on topic please, there's no need for pointless off-topic back and forth, meaningless +1/-1 reactions, personal attacks or anything of that nature. I have removed some of those from this thread and if more of that sort follow, warnings/punishments will be issued to the repeat offenders , you know who you are. This is exactly the reason threads like this always end up getting locked. Thank you.

[ComradeCorbyn]

8 minutes ago, Joaquin Guzman said:

See I was talking about this with Silky very casually, I think there is definitely some good rules and maybe some more that can be suggested as well. I'm not saying anything to make anyone upset or mad it's more about getting opinion. There could potentially be a rule on "active shootouts' not allowing PD/SD to regen armor inside there vehicles and things like that balance each other out. Given it's 23-26k to get a 100 AP and cops can get it for free and its regen-able inside a faction loadout cruiser.  

It's absurd how these fantastical ideas of SD and PD doing these things can even come to mind. Are you doing this in SD? Because I can tell you sure as hell that that is absolutely unacceptable and not something that I have ever witnessed anyone doing in all my time in the server. At this point we're not even bringing up real issues, just mythical problems that we think could possibly occur if SD and PD was run by the average criminal roleplayer.

[Joaquin Guzman]

Just now, ComradeCorbyn said:

It's absurd how these fantastical ideas of SD and PD doing these things can even come to mind. Are you doing this in SD? Because I can tell you sure as hell that that is absolutely unacceptable and not something that I have ever witnessed anyone doing in all my time in the server. At this point we're not even bringing up real issues, just mythical problems that we think could possibly occur if SD and PD was run by the average criminal roleplayer.

I make sure I don't do this as I know how it is for criminals when fighting PD and SD.

[Osborn]

My last response was real and true and depicts the ongoing issue, people get up and arms about seeing a PD or SD unit in a lab but there's nearly if not always context. ~15 minutes ago we chased a BF-400 into Sealab from a store robbery in Grapeseed and as moved in, a Kamacho that arrived with some known criminal players was giving us shit in IC shouting for rolling labs (????? ). 

As a Faction Leader of the great Los Santos County Sheriff's Department (it's true, it's great), to contribute to the topic, here is a snippet of our policy which is pretty strictly enforced, and if we notice potential violations we act on it. 




Feel free to make reports to us if you feel someone is randomly checking lab / crime locations. We've worked hard to create our policies and enforce them out of fairness. 

You can also report to Legal Factions Management if you feel like we're not handling issues. 


 

[Kazjii]

3 minutes ago, SaltyPoiosn said:

My point is we are feeling hard done by purely because as sad as it sounds, we as crims that have to interact with one another. Only ever really happens at labs and some server events, so when we have cops seemingly rolling labs it feels very cheap and we are left confused and to be honest a little salty. 

And I can understand that frustration, but I rarely, and I mean rarely get any reports about cops rolling labs. And when we do get those reports, its almost always backed up with active traces with multiple warrants, wanted for murders, etc - it always seems to be a reason.

Perhaps there should be a bit more transparency, but I cannot suggest a way to be transparent that also considers IC information remaining IC. At the same time though, I think it is important to consider that labs are not safe havens and that there is an innate risk for going to labs. Regardless if its being slid on by another gang or if you unknowingly were being investigated by police for some recent prior crime they have committed. *It is insanely common for someone to rob a store or shoot at some gang and then be tracked/seen going to a lab where we then go and attempt to put into custody*

[SaltyPoiosn]

9 minutes ago, ComradeCorbyn said:

Almost seems like a parody how much of a 180 you are taking on your position on this matter now that you realize it's a little more complicated than your initial post made it out to be.

No one said this is an open and shut case. As a crim that hasn’t played or participated in the legal side of things on this server. I see both sides very well, I understand that there are reasons as to why police do certain things, I also understand that they cannot and should not have to explain to us those reasons due to the unfortunate but likely chance of meta gaming. 
 

However, if you read what I have said specifically in this thread. My main issue the recent increase in the amount of times police (Mainly Detectives) are seen at these static illegal locations. Again, this is not an attack LFM or the LEOs of the server type of thread. I agree Joaquin could have worded it differently, but that’s just the way she goes bud. It’s simply a discussion about the recent events for us crims. 

[Smoke1]

There are other ways to cook drugs icly in private all be its not what is used to be.

[SaltyPoiosn]

2 minutes ago, Kazjii said:

And I can understand that frustration, but I rarely, and I mean rarely get any reports about cops rolling labs. And when we do get those reports, it’s almost always backed up with active traces with multiple warrants, wanted for murders, etc - it always seems to be a reason.

Yea of course, I completely understand that most of you if not all of you keep the integrity and strictly act on IC events rather than your OOC knowledge of these locations. As previously stated, my main issue is the sudden increase in the last two weeks. That is the sole reason this whole debate began. 
 

4 minutes ago, Kazjii said:

I cannot suggest a way to be transparent that also considers IC information remaining IC

Also, this I completely understand. Again I have just touched on this in my recent reply. I get 10000 percent why this information has to stay undercover (pardon the pun). My only suggestion would be forums reports for staff to investigate, or like Martin said. An OOC IA report. I just feel as though this causes a lot of unnecessary tension between crims and legals. At the end of the day I’m here to RP, the last thing I want is 10+ reports out a day because these ridiculous issues. When 98% of the cases are probably completely valid.

[ComradeCorbyn]

1 minute ago, SaltyPoiosn said:

Yea of course, I completely understand that most of you if not all of you keep the integrity and strictly act on IC events rather than your OOC knowledge of these locations. As previously stated, my main issue is the sudden increase in the last two weeks. That is the sole reason this whole debate began. 
 

Also, this I completely understand. Again I have just touched on this in my recent reply. I get 10000 percent why this information has to stay undercover (pardon the pun). My only suggestion would be forums reports for staff to investigate, or like Martin said. An OOC IA report. I just feel as though this causes a lot of unnecessary tension between crims and legals. At the end of the day I’m here to RP, the last thing I want is 10+ reports out a day because these ridiculous issues. When 98% of the cases are probably completely valid.

Just yesterday I investigated an occurrence of this in SD when it was reported to us by a criminal roleplayer. Unfortunately, I don't think people who report these things to us are going to reply to a thread like this because they understand how thorough our investigations into these occurrences are. A few bad apples does not hold up when both law enforcement factions have command teams that are actively ready to investigate such occurrences. I recommend in the future directing this to faction command for investigation instead of starting a bold thread with wild accusations (Not saying you personally did this, but it has certainly happened in this thread). Perhaps then you will understand just how seriously we take this.