Internal Affairs with PD & SD and Non-Roleplay

[Herbo]

Hello all! This is something that has been discussed quite a bit and I wanted to bring a forum post regarding it. I’ll preface this by saying that not all criminals are guilty of doing this, I will also attempt to keep specific names and situations out of this post. 

THE PROBLEM

The current problem is that we have people who are considered “serious” crims that will consistently IA report LEOs off of some really petty shit. This is people in official criminal factions and people in non official criminal factions. We will have people that get into multi occupied vehicles with heavies, evade from LEO, then shoot at us and then go cry to IA after shooting and attempting to kill deputies. In my opinion I think this should entirely be considered NRP. IA should be used for solely serious situations in major breaches of LEO IC rules, not for you getting called an idiot, retard, etc. This leads to my suggested solution on this issue.

THE SOLUTION

I think that both the LSPD and LSSD staff members should work with Faction Management to start identifying these extremely petty IA reports that are coming in from criminals and start throwing them out and then working with their respective faction leaders to ensure that their lore is being followed.

In my opinion it makes zero sense that these people who are in “gangs” that are constantly involved in the trafficking of firearms and drugs, murder of individuals, etc. To go to IA and report an officer for extremely petty shit. 

This is just my opinion with an actual suggested solution attached with a problem that is getting more and more out of hand every single day.

[risk]

While I understand the sentiment behind this post, I personally will never agree with removing the concept of an IA report for criminals- hardened or otherwise- given how the server operates. 9/10, when there are concerns about LEO that are not an egregious rule break the first response from nearly everyone is, "File an IA report" and for good reason.

The IA system exists for accountability and while I am sure there are people who may abuse it ICly, removing that entirely by attempting to define a hard line of "when can a criminal reasonably file an IA report" would be difficult to determine, much less enforce. If a criminal files an IA report and is found doing something silly and gets themselves in trouble over it, that's IC actions = IC consequences. If it's found the law enforcement officer broke protocol, that's IC actions = IC consequences. 

I know of several criminal factions ICly who are vehemently opposed against the concept of IA and will pursue IC consequences if someone is being found doing so. Having staff intervene there "because they broke lore" over something that is designed to hold players accountable (just like Faction Services exists for criminal factions and LFM exists for government factions, but player to player) is heavily overstepping, in my opinion. 

[Requiem]

 

[Herbo]

27 minutes ago, risk said:

While I understand the sentiment behind this post, I personally will never agree with removing the concept of an IA report for criminals- hardened or otherwise- given how the server operates. 9/10, when there are concerns about LEO that are not an egregious rule break the first response from nearly everyone is, "File an IA report" and for good reason.

My suggestion isn’t to remove IA reports for criminals, there are very much times where i believe it’s acceptable. I’m talking about the times where the IA reports are clearly petty, for example you get yelled at by a cop so you’re IA reporting as a criminal. 

For your last point about factions and them taking IC consequences if found doing so, my post isn’t about them. It ls more about the factions where it’s against the lore, the leader/HC know about it yet they continue to allow it to happen. Those are the situations that I think FM should step in for.

[CalvinKlein]

Big -1,

 

coming from someone playing crim since 2019 with only one IA report placed 

[Requiem]

Let's try to keep the comments constructive rather than just putting a -1 or something toxic. If you disagree with the suggestion, then state why so all sides can be considered. 

[CalvinKlein]

3 hours ago, Requiem said:

Let's try to keep the comments constructive rather than just putting a -1 or something toxic. If you disagree with the suggestion, then state why so all sides can be considered. 

It you’re worried about being IA reported just stick to being fair and realistic with your RP and follow your factions guidelines / IC rules , already many things that are “IC” for criminals are considered OOC, the list goes from Nonrp Robbery (robberies / risk / reward being IC) , to convoys rule , backup rule , 30 member faction cap , joint freqs , and many other things where if you dare do something like this that’s IC, you are met with OOC punishment however for PD if there’s a scuffed situation you’re in “it’s IC, file IA” so as I started my message with if you’re worried about being IA reported play by your book, if you can’t, leave PD it’s not for you, but to try and remove the ONLY system and create OOC rules to help you not have accountability ? that’s just scuffed, maybe this could be the case if there was a proper justice system / courts etc , but rn you play judge jury executioner and operate under guilty till proven innocent, and if you want to refute in court you still do your time and wait 2-4 months if not longer. So why is it that anything not in LEOs favor they always ask for it to be OOCly regulated while anything from their end is to be considered IC., no matter who you are with less OOC / server wise / FM rules specifically made for cops the way gangs have those rules , if someone from PD is worthy of a complaint by all means they should be able to, I don’t see forum reports made about 10 pd cars chasing ONE mid tier vehicle all going top speed in the city because it’s “IC / “strategy” and “tactics” so unless there was a form of OOC balance made , possibly rules from FM for PD to ensure that balance then we can look into things like making it realistic for this person / that person to file or not file an IA complaint, to me it just sounds like you piss off criminals , get IA reported and then complain thinking OH it’s nonrp 

[Melody Frey]

I have never felt more strongly about a forum suggestion in my time on the server. Absolute -1.

I cannot even fathom the idea of taking this IC issue OOC this heavily. If a criminal wants to IA you, leave it to your IA department to decide your consequences or to throw it out. I for one strongly disagree with IA reports entirely for my faction, but there is zero reason to involve staff over an IC issue.

[GR_Seb]

It's true that some of us got punished Icly over petty shit throughout our police career.  Sure it's annoying and sure crimelords with over 100 felonies complaining about a few wrongdoings may appear silly but! Those are the ones who keep us on our toes to improve and be better. Classing them as Non-RP would have a negative impact on the community.  I'll have to give my -1 on this one as for a fact, if a report is that petty, they'll end up giving you a warning for your wrongdoing. 

[crystianaxo]

-1

If you don't want to get IA reported, don't do something that has consequences and would get you IA reported. If you didn't actually do anything wrong, there would be no punishment. 

LEOs should be held to a higher standard than average citizens... so, I mean, either roleplay as such or don't. Either way, actions have consequences.

If people with extensive criminal records are not taken seriously when submitting IA reports, the only thing that opens the door for is LEOs feeling comfortable in abusing their power and getting away with it, because they know said person has done x, y and z and... who is gonna believe the crim over the cop?

I don't know if there's really a way to filter whether or not they are "serious enough" to be addressed without actually reading them and looking into the issue... which just puts us exactly where we are now.

There's also pettiness on both sides. A petty IA report might come about, just as a petty charge is tacked on to someone who gets arrested. It's not a one-sided issue whatsoever.

[Marksy]

-1 this basically says, please take away the only IC accountability that we have so I can do what I want with no consequences. 

[Quietthecutie]

-1

I read this then needed to read it a few more times to make sure I had the drive of it.

To be clear, and anyone can stop me if they think this is wrong, but IA reports are for IC grievances for IC actions of LEOs whilst on duty. they are a check and balance for the significant powers granted to LEOs, we agreed on that? ok.

Then asking this to be handled oocly by faction management...completely moots the point of IA...if complaints are able to be totally disregarded cus this characters filed multiple complaints before that came to nothing. leaves a dangerous precedent that career crims just get ignored by IA because of their IC career choice and character traits and from an IC perspective why would crim management ever not side with their guys. makes no sense...

Edited October 12, 2023 by Quietthecutie

[DontSniffSugar]

I personally disagree with this.

 

Currently as the rules stands, you cannot attack or kill officers only for arresting you due to the unavoidable RP that it involves. That's not to say you can't further escalate situations and eventually obtain DM rights on the officer you may have an issue with. In real life, very hardened criminals would have no issues killing cops, but due to the structure of the rules you can't retaliate the same way you could in real life.

 

Lets say that you finally get DM rights on the person you have an issue with, you successfully go through their armor and outgun them, and then manage to execute them. They can just respawn and go on about their faction duties and carry on with what they were doing with no real repercussions. 

 Sure they'll be inconvenienced and have to buy a new radio and GPS, but they won't face the same type of loss criminals do, with it being losing weaponry, tools, and having to wait out the NLR timer to retrieve any vehicles involved.

 

The way I see it, I'm sure lots of  "hardened criminals" wouldn't want to IA report officers, but its the only real method they have to try and "get back" on the person that wronged them. 

 

Some factions already monitor IA reports that are sent in from your characters, and some will even kick you from their faction if they find out that you are submitting IA reports that aren't Out of Character.

Edited October 12, 2023 by DontSniffSugar
typo

[MrSilky]

On 10/3/2023 at 2:22 AM, Melody Frey said:

 I for one strongly disagree with IA reports entirely for my faction

[Melody Frey]

1 hour ago, MrSilky said:

I mean you can put this here if you want, but the only ones that have been pushed to my knowledge are strictly OOC IAs or with an extreme amount of validation.

[Bala]

Reality is, not everyone plays a character on Eclipse. Whether it's police side or criminal side. Their actions and motivations are not necessarily dictated by the roleplay but by how they feel as a person about the other party, OOC. 

The realism aspect goes out the window because no self-respecting criminal would be filing complaints about the police, to the police. By the same extension, would Internal Affairs look at a multiple time murderer reporting an officer for calling them names and take disciplinary action? Probably not.

Ignoring the realism aspect is understandable, especially in the context of the server we play on and the community we have.

I'm of the personal opinion that, at least for PD (because I have no experience with SD), the individuals handling those complaints place an importance on weeding out the bad apples in the faction, hand out as appropriate an outcome as they possibly can but also, within the context and confines of the server, know when a complaint is a pile of horse shit.

I'm not in IA, but I've been IAed before. Even recently. I trust those people there to have my back when I deserve their support and I trust those people to call me out on my shit when I deserve that as well.

It's just sad that as a community, the report culture in general was never properly addressed. Reports, whether IA or "SAVE POV" or whatever are weaponised and used as a tool by some community members to coerce a favourable outcome or to get their own back on someone they feel has wronged them OOC. 

[MrSilky]

7 hours ago, Melody Frey said:

I mean you can put this here if you want, but the only ones that have been pushed to my knowledge are strictly OOC IAs or with an extreme amount of validation.

I’m only joking with you - I agree, it would not be wise to OOCly moderate this. Although on the surface it may seem unrealistic, it’s the way players are ICly held accountable. 

Speaking on behalf of PD’s IA, we will always respect every report as valid, regardless the origin.