Gameplay Suggestion: Character Kill Applications

[Nubbsauce]

Hello! 

I am posting this gameplay/roleplay suggestion to possibly decrease the random low-quality rp conflict between players on ECRP. 

Why do I think this would enhance the level of roleplay on the server?

Simple. Over the past 7 years here, I have seen a multitude of different conflicts between Illegal and Legal characters alike, some of which showing poor roleplay behaviors and unrealistic encounters between feuding groups/factions/characters. The reason this would improve the quality of roleplay and encourage proper realistic character play/immersion is that the players would actually be at risk of losing everything they have built based upon their actions, attitudes, and interactions between other players on the server. 

There have been many times where it seems like a gang war just never ends, and the tensions between the players often lead to a "Report War" on the forums to see who could get the other gangs members banned first to demoralize the opposition. While some may say that is not the case, the past 7 years of gangs and other factions getting into conflict on the player reports tell a different story.

The below suggestion and outline would give players a RP reason to possibly end the conflict in a different manner, whilst encouraging good roleplay and proper execution of events, whilst also keeping their own roleplay interactions in check.

Because if there was a way to possibly get your character permanently killed due to your continued aggressive actions towards another character or faction, I 100% believe this would not only cut down on the player reports from gang wars and other faction interactions, but also improve the quality of roleplay and player interaction across the board. 

Below is an outline for a character kill and an example application template to submit.

 

--------------------

 

What is a Character Kill?

This is when your character dies, both voluntarily (suicide) and involuntarily (murder etc.), and you no longer are allowed to use said character. This leaves the character redundant and you cannot return to this character at any point. It is dead.

 

What is a CK application?

The application has been created as a final resort/alternative to player kills in circumstances where it is a necessity. It allows one player to apply to the Faction Management team for the right to Character Kill someone else’s character without their permission.

 

It is not something to take lightly and we recommend that you first consider your character continuity and development before submitting a CK application against another player. The application is designed to introduce concerns and reality over a characters actions and the consequences that may follow. While it may be a daunting prospect to have your character taken away for good, this should in turn help you understand the reasons for its introduction and execution.

 

What is a valid CK request reason like?

To be accepted, a CK request must first make sense in the server continuity and involved characters' developments. If the event you're applying for a CK request can be solved with a peaceful solution, and it's not a major part of the target's character story or your character story, it will be denied.

 

Examples:

-A player is a known scammer and is scamming you for $30 000, it was a one time event and you just lost a trade : this is DM worthy and not CK worthy.

-A player is robbing a victim, the victim manages to run away and call the cops while running, the cops arrive and arrest the robber. Submitting a CK appeal on the victim because you were sent to jail, will be denied as this is a direct result of the robber's actions, and it's a common sense response from the victim.

-A player joined a faction as outsider with his best friend, becomes associate after a few weeks and fully involve himself in the criminal faction to become a made man. After a few months, his best friend is murdered by the faction leader for an unknown or known reason in front of him, he decides to revenge him. The CK will be denied as killing the faction leader following the death of your best friend makes no sense for your development within this faction and the value of your life as a person.

-Two players start a criminal group together, after a few years one decides to betray the other by snitching to the cops about their activities. The CK application would be accepted on the snitch.

 

What happens next?

After an application is received, it will be posted for Faction Management members to review. They will look in depth at the reasoning provided and the circumstances surrounding the murderer and his/her victim. If necessary, they will be in touch for further information.

 

Petty reasons should not be accepted, and staff would require thorough evidence of the circumstances leading up the individuals need for death. Failure to provide enough information and supporting evidence will have the application denied immediately.

 

Once a conclusion has been met, staff will tell the requesting party their acceptance or denial. The target will not be informed.

 

When you have carried out the CK, you may /report 1 (or a new /report 5 option) for staff to admin jail their character, inform them via PM, and have the handling admin check with the Faction Management team.

 

------------------------

 

Character Kill Application Example Template:

 

Title of Private Message to the Faction Management team:

 

Character Kill Application - Your Character | Target Character

 

Contents of Private Message:

 

Your Characters Name:

Your faction affiliation (if any):

Who will be performing said CK if accepted:

 

Targets name:

Targets faction (if known):

 

 

Details of circumstances and reasoning:

 

Evidence:

 

Do you understand the fine print? (Y/N):

 

----‐-------------------------

 

Fine Print:

-If you die whilst attempting to carry out the Character Kill on the reported player, you in turn will face a Character Kill - this is non-negotiable.

-Failure to properly follow the Character Kill Application process will result in the termination of the Character Kill Application.

-Unrealistic actions used to carry out the CK will leave the CK null and void.

-Breaking of server rules whilst carrying out the CK will leave the CK null and void.

-If you take a group with you to kill the target, you must inform them if they die in the altercation that this too leaves them liable to CK.

-Victims may appeal their death via forum post. (Or however the Devs/Staff wish to handle appeals)

-(DEV/STAFF Discretion): 1 free name change to a victim OF A CK APPLICATION for their first CK. All other CKs will not receive a free name change.

-If a member of Faction Management is involved with the CK, they will not have access to the application. If you’re applying to CK a member of Faction Management, it should be sent to a Senior Admin or higher (or faction management head).

 

---------------------------

Do you think the above suggestion could provide a higher quality of roleplay and interactions between characters? Let me know what you think!

[Herbo]

BIGGEST -1 EVER.

I have a little over 2,000 or so hours on this server, that's from June 25th 2022 - Present among 3 different characters, roughly 300,000-400,000 EXP. There is a GREAT majority of criminals on this server that have twice to 3 times that. To get 1 million EXP that's around 200,000 MINUTES of playtime ( assuming you have VIP ) which accumulates to a little over 3,000 HOURS of playtime, on just that character. If you didn't know there's ~8,760 HOURS in 1 year. Now some may think I'm just rambling off numbers but there's a point to it.

There's a good majority of people that have just HOURS of playtime, years of playing their specific character. They have done COUNTLESS things that would technically make them available for a CK with your application and reasoning format. Lets just say this was a thing, someone who has a genuine hate for them applies for this CK and gets it. That person who's spent HOURS on this server doing what they love and hanging out with friends, HOURS farming money to buy the new cool car they want, HOURS spreading connections, has ZERO idea they're about to lose EVERYTHING, Hundreds to Thousands of Hours of experience just gone because someone wanted to kill them. I'm sorry but it's absurd.

The current way to get revenge on people for wronging you has ZERO issues right now. Someone wronged you, okay kidnap them and create RP without completely ruining their mood for days. I don't know about other people, but if I lost anything that I put Hundreds of hours into, I would be EXTREMELY upset at it. I've seen countless times people take EXTENDED breaks from the server because their gang they put hours into disbands, or they have a falling out with a good IC friend, they lose a weapon they really liked, or they got raided by PD/SD and lost a lot of their stuff. 

I'm sorry and it's cool you put a lot of thought into this suggestion and wrote it out, but the ability to just take someones hobby away at the snap of your fingers is crazy to me and shouldn't be considered. Unless the individual breaks a serious server rule that gave them a lot of items, rule breaks don't even result in your character getting wiped most times. Just the suggestion of someone being able to apply to permanently kill another character, another character that has thousands of hours of playtime on it. Is quite insane to me.

[Nubbsauce]

@Herbo

In order to get a CK granted, the submitter would have to have literal months of RP around their target to lead up to the CK.

As stated, the requests couldn't just be out of the blue because you don't like someone or for something petty. It would have to not only match your characters story/lifestyle, but also their personality (which would be determined in the months of evidence that would be applied to the application). If the team decides that the evidence is insufficient or it doesn't match the consistency of the submitting character, its denied.

This wouldn't be something that you submit after a few days of getting "clapped" at a lab the same person. This would be usable IC evidence to support your characters reasoning for wanting to proceed with this action.

If it was just a submit and instant grant no matter what, sure, I would understand your concern with the exp values and time spent. And I wouldn't want that either.

However, my suggestion isn't that. It is a drawn out IC RP between one players character and another's. Obviously if you died to the player, NLR kicks in and all that evidence leading to that moment is void, same thing goes if you kill them. The evidence is void. You would have to collect concrete evidence that would justify a murder of another's character. Which isn't easy to obtain. 

I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept that you may have interpreted wrong, but I assure you, this would not just be a random thing or a simple process. It would have to have an extremely long build up IC between you and another char. And obviously, if this was a factor, so many people would enhance their rp and stick to their character, instead of having the "Clapper" mentality of rolling labs and shooting bodies just because "war" or someone doesn't like another from the opposition. Or someone continously being disrespectful or baiting someone else to hit them first so they get DM rights. Because now, their actions COULD have this as a consequence.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nubbsauce

[Herbo]

It simply doesn't matter if you have YEARS of evidence of them consistently doing shitty things that would warrant a CK like you said. Making somebody losing their entire character that they spend those months developing is practically a complete OOC consequence. There's simply no other way to look at it, making someone forcefully not be able to play a character that they love and enjoy playing is so un-called for.

[Nubbsauce]

6 minutes ago, Herbo said:

It simply doesn't matter if you have YEARS of evidence of them consistently doing shitty things that would warrant a CK like you said. Making somebody losing their entire character that they spend those months developing is practically a complete OOC consequence. There's simply no other way to look at it, making someone forcefully not be able to play a character that they love and enjoy playing is so un-called for.

Just to clarify, this whole process means you have to actually RP,  and provide IC evidence with time stamps etc, for months with a build up to this point. None of the evidence provided could be deemed as petty. If there is 1 piece of evidence that is deemed petty or poor, it's denied.

The application is not just an OOC "I wanna ruin this person's week." It's a "Okay so I've effectively RPd with this person for 4-5 months with only the tension being escalated. I think my character has had enough and been brought to this point of no other options but this..."

It will take a LOT of effort and time on the submitter to get the application accepted at all. None of which can be OOCly motivated. Only purely IC.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nubbsauce

[Ash]

This kind of used to be a thing but it wasn’t a full kill, it was in faction wars and if someone was a war kill through a similar process you described they’d be effectively unaffiliated and not able to participate in the gang war until conclusion. And once the war had ended they come back NLRd from the conflict.

The whole official war thing was removed a while ago for one reason or another I don’t know personally and the war kill system with it.

I’m not keen on being able to CK someone without their consent, but I would like to see some form of support for self-ck with approval where an admin would like admin jail you for 99999 or something so that character can’t be played and you’d be able to transfer up to say 50% of your assets to a new character through request. Even that has several flaws though. 

[Nubbsauce]

45 minutes ago, Ash said:

This kind of used to be a thing but it wasn’t a full kill, it was in faction wars and if someone was a war kill through a similar process you described they’d be effectively unaffiliated and not able to participate in the gang war until conclusion. And once the war had ended they come back NLRd from the conflict.

The whole official war thing was removed a while ago for one reason or another I don’t know personally and the war kill system with it.

I’m not keen on being able to CK someone without their consent, but I would like to see some form of support for self-ck with approval where an admin would like admin jail you for 99999 or something so that character can’t be played and you’d be able to transfer up to say 50% of your assets to a new character through request. Even that has several flaws though. 

I believe the type of kill you are referring to is a PK. To where it doesn't perma kill you, you just lose all knowledge of anyone affiliated with that group and they lose knowledge of you. 

Also, let's say if CK was to be a thing already implemented, I'm sure the player would already be somewhat aware of the risk of continuous aggressive actions towards another player, and would have plenty of time to mend things with said other player. 

The idea of the app is pretty much saying "My character has tried everything to find a common ground or peace between the other to no avail. So now this is the only path that my character has left to take." And the character kill isn't exclusive to only getting rights to CK another character, but it also includes to CK your own via their own means. 

Things that could also be tied into this could be with the JB of ECRP, such as players writing a "Will" for their characters in the event a CK of any kind could happen.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nubbsauce

[Buggs]

There's so many things to this point that's interesting. I've always like the idea of having a natural end to my characters. I have 1 mil + experience on one of them, and I wouldn't mind CKing her in the right situation. However, the way I've seen CK's work properly, is if you go into something knowing you have the possibility to be CK'd.

AKA: you join a gang and fill out a waver OOCly that if your character does XYZ they are eligible to be CK'd by the gang. You character does X thing and gets CK'd. You now get to rename that character and start their new life over, but you have to sell all the previous assets or come up with an RP story as to why you character has those assets.

Unfortunately that example does not work with our current city because everyone can just alias one another, which means if someone name changes, you wouldn't know and would still refer to them as their old character who died.

However, that's the best way I've seen them done, where a character never TRULY loses all the time and effort someone has put into making them money/getting assets.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Buggs

[Requiem]

-1

It should never be someone else's decision to CK your character, only your own. Its not fair to someone that has a large investment in a character to just kill them off without them even knowing. 

[Cyrus Raven]

People care too much about their play money and assets, which I don't blame them for given the server economy.

Realistically speaking I don't think this will happen, although I will +1 it. For those who are interested, there is a chance, although small that you can place your own character in a CK situation and have some assets transferred as outlined in the Transfer Request Information post, but it's a risk since it's not something officially supported.
 

"'Eclipse RP currently doesn't have a system to support character kills, thus we will not accept that as the sole reason to transfer assets. Only in very rare occasions if the character kill isn't proven to be random can a Senior Administrator approve asset transfers for character kills.''

For those who don't mind CK'ing their own characters without assistance from staff or any transfer of assets, you can do this on your own. Two of my characters have perma conditions on them which were set at the start of the character, if 3 out of 3 of those conditions are met then the character will be ''vaulted'' and no longer played.

These can be simple conditions, for example:

- My character is downed by an established nemesis

- The RP leading to this down has been going on for at least 3 months
- A knife must be used.

This is different from the suggestion at hand, but something I recommend people try especially on a new character if they want to get used to playing a character without OOC influence of loosing digital assets.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Cyrus Raven

[Herbo]

What requiem said, someone else should never have the ability to “delete” one of your characters. If this was implemented the person who’s gonna be CK should have to agree to it and then it’s be fine IMO. But someone else being able to just delete YEARS of playing a character is a huge no no

[Ash]

What @Cyrus Raven said is absolutely right.

I’d love to encourage people to make more permanent changes to their character and having the balls to end an rp scenario with their character RPly dead.

I do think these decisions should be down to the player not their enemies, however.

[Buggs]

29 minutes ago, Ash said:

I’d love to encourage people to make more permanent changes to their character and having the balls to end an rp scenario with their character RPly dead.

Two things:

A. The mentality of having things be more permanent would be nice, but this would have to be supported by staff as well.

Yes, we as players can make our own circumstances and keep to those (as Cyrus stated), However, if staff is not on board, or do not deem the reason "good" enough for them, then the person would suffer by losing their assets (possibly) or the server would suffer by those assets permanently not being used.

Meaning: we can perma kill our characters, but if the assets stay on that character than whatever businesses/houses they have will NEVER go on the market as long as they play on other characters. This is already a problem that the character transfer application does not cover nor allow for.

B. Staff would have to support in-depth character development that doesn't necessarily fit within server rules

You would be able to see things like people risking their lives for others or walking into precarious situations because that is just who their character is. However, rules state that this is not possible at this time.

For instance, a cop who has been getting a lot of recognition gets a little to big for his boots and goes solo into a situation where he shouldn't have.
IRL: he may be killed, held hostage, injured, what have you.
ECRP: He's punished on the forums.

Another example: Your character witnesses the person they love get shot down after a pursuit. Instead of running, your character tries to go back to defend their loved one.
IRL: They die for the person they love.
ECRP: They get punished on the forums.

[Herbo]

1 hour ago, Buggs said:

For instance, a cop who has been getting a lot of recognition gets a little to big for his boots and goes solo into a situation where he shouldn't have.
IRL: he may be killed, held hostage, injured, what have you.
ECRP: He's punished on the forums.

Please no, we don’t need more reasons/excuses for cops to solo challenge gunfights because they have better guns and armor. This would just give them more excuses of “it’s my character”. It’s a rule break for a reason 

[Buggs]

31 minutes ago, Herbo said:

Please no, we don’t need more reasons/excuses for cops to solo challenge gunfights because they have better guns and armor. This would just give them more excuses of “it’s my character”. It’s a rule break for a reason 

You seem to be very good at taking something out of context and blowing it up. You've done this other times within this same post. This is precisely why the rules are the way they are now. Because of this type of thinking.

I say "in-depth character development" and you say "we don’t need more reasons/excuses for cops to solo challenge gunfights because they have better guns and armor". That literally has 0 to do with in-depth character development, which requires proof and would leave some what of a paper/evidence trail. So you're right we don't need more of that, but it has nothing to do with what you quoted.

[Nubbsauce]

3 hours ago, Herbo said:

What requiem said, someone else should never have the ability to “delete” one of your characters. If this was implemented the person who’s gonna be CK should have to agree to it and then it’s be fine IMO. But someone else being able to just delete YEARS of playing a character is a huge no no

It wouldn't delete. I said admin-jailed. Meaning the assets still exist and appeals can be made. However, as I also stated, if you are afraid of potentially losing your char's life, then don't put your char at that risk. Once again, the CK wouldn't some random thing, it would take a LOT to even have validity to accept. You would be well aware of you acting out towards a another character consistently, so it wouldn't be like you couldn't expect it at all. Also keep in mind that you could also by chance CK someone else's char in a gun fight if they had an accepted request on yours. So it isn't like they are risking nothing. IF they die, their char is CKd, not yours.

To add: Nothing with how you play the game currently would change. You could still do your gang stuff and do what the gangs do best. The only ADDED factor is that eventually, months down the road after TONS of RP...your char could be in the crosshairs of one of your literal mortal enemies on the server, not a random gang member, cop, or civilian. This would add a factor of RP of "Holy hell, I need to not be so reckless, that person could have killed me." and your actions may eventually have an ultimate consequence.

This would also add the ability to CK your own char as well, as I had said.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nubbsauce

[Nubbsauce]

1 hour ago, Herbo said:

Please no, we don’t need more reasons/excuses for cops to solo challenge gunfights because they have better guns and armor. This would just give them more excuses of “it’s my character”. It’s a rule break for a reason 

This wouldn't be part of this application process. That is a FRP rulebreak for sure if they try to robocop things and should be handled that way. 

This would be like lets say a detective gets a break because you had a snitch and finds out all your gang's hideouts, drops, etc and completely hinders your gang by performing raid after raid. Well, guess what, the gang leader now would have the ability to submit this request to ultimately CK the Snitch. Why? Because the snitch has worked months on obtaining that crucial information and with them most likely interacting with your gang a lot. Then, because they had whatever reason they had to go behind a gang leaders back and snitch to the police? That is 100% a valid reason for a CK application in the end. 

But you could NOT just submit this one time event and get it accepted, it would have to be from when that snitch first joined your gang, the interactions they had with the lead and those locations to obtain the info, and then add in the last bit. 

HOWEVER. This ALSO means that IF the lead submits the accepted application, and THEY get killed, then they die. It was a risk they were willing to take, and they lost the bet. OR lets say the gang lead brings 4 of his best shooters with him (Letting them know that this is an active CK and their char will be also mortal during this time), and one of his shooters die, but they get the snitch...then the snitch and that shooter dies... It is once again, a high risk, high reward situation.

THE PLAYER chooses whether or not to put their character at constant risk, no one else does. The CK cannot and will not happen without proper, documented storyline roleplay.

[Requiem]

There are two primary problems you may not be considering with this concept though:

1) You are punishing good RP. If you actually have a good RP story arc with deep character development, even if you are the snitch in your above example, why should creative and good RP development after months of buildup be punished with a CK? ESPECIALLY without you even knowing about it. This would demoralize the server and its players to even go in depth with any of their RP. This leads me into my next point...

2) You scare the players, perhaps to the point of quitting the server, or not joining to begin with. If I knew that this CK concept was a possibility for involving myself in certain situations, some players may be to afraid to lose all their progress and investments to even involve themselves to begin with and may either quit the server or perhaps this may demotivate players from joining. 

I feel this concept would be incredibly unhealthy for the server and the player base. 

[Nubbsauce]

1 hour ago, Requiem said:

There are two primary problems you may not be considering with this concept though:

1) You are punishing good RP. If you actually have a good RP story arc with deep character development, even if you are the snitch in your above example, why should creative and good RP development after months of buildup be punished with a CK? ESPECIALLY without you even knowing about it. This would demoralize the server and its players to even go in depth with any of their RP. This leads me into my next point...

2) You scare the players, perhaps to the point of quitting the server, or not joining to begin with. If I knew that this CK concept was a possibility for involving myself in certain situations, some players may be to afraid to lose all their progress and investments to even involve themselves to begin with and may either quit the server or perhaps this may demotivate players from joining. 

I feel this concept would be incredibly unhealthy for the server and the player base. 

To answer your points:

1. This is not punishing good RP. This is in-fact requiring someone to actually HEAVILY RP if they REALLY wanted to request a CK on someone. And it isn't a happy, slice of life type of RP. It's brutal, constant tensions, anger, frustration, and the build up of someone's character to finally snap and have no remaining options. It's a darker RP, more serious RP. And by all means, if the other person doesn't consent to it, then by server rules, its dropped. On top of that, the requesting player is also putting their character on the line for a CK. It isn't just they try to CK the accepted target, and get to try again tomorrow if they die. No. If they fail, their char gets CKd instead.

Also, it keeps getting brought up that they wont know about it... Yes they wont be TOLD about the application, but unless the TARGET PLAYER is completely blind to their own actions and interactions with others...it would be common sense to be able to think that "Hey...maybe me constantly pressing this person every day for the past 4 months straight without letting up will cause them to snap..." If someone truly doesn't see that, then that is a very reckless character or a blind one.

 

2. It isn't to scare anyone away. It is to promote REALISTIC Roleplay. As it stands, some players do NOT care about what their character does to others, because guess what, their character will never be permanently affected by any repercussion unless it is a permanent ban from a player report. They lose nothing but maybe a heavy weapon, pistol, empty water bottle, some painkillers, and 30 mins of their time while they wait for the NLR CD...

The term "Clapper Gang" shouldn't even be a thing here, and honestly, if my gang was labeled as a "Clapper Gang", I would be disappointed in myself for letting the quality of overall roleplay slip to that degree. Everyone who plays an extremely violent character should immediately understand the risk of that type of Roleplay. High Risk = High Reward right? Realistic Roleplay of gangs would have FAR more immersive RP related violence rather than "rolling labs" and "clapping". 

There is a LOT of "Rule-Play" between chars (illegals being the majority) when they try to WIN first and RP second. First one to get the FRP wins, someone runs? Player Report. Random thugs antagonizing legal chars to try and get them to make the first move so they get DM rights, is very poor RP. But did you notice the difference? If you aim to WIN an encounter by having it be due to RULE ENFORCEMENT first...you are NOT Roleplaying proper. 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Nubbsauce

[Jett_J]

-1 absolutely not

I would quit the server if the character I have worked on for 2 years is essentially deleted without my permission.

[Nubbsauce]

45 minutes ago, Jett_J said:

-1 absolutely not

I would quit the server if the character I have worked on for 2 years is essentially deleted without my permission.

Once again, never said deleted. Admin Jailed. 

[Jett_J]

58 minutes ago, Nubbsauce said:

Once again, never said deleted. Admin Jailed. 

It's pretty much the same thing since you can't use the character.

[DontSniffSugar]

-1

 

As @Jett_J said, I would quit the server if my character was deleted after spending a lot of effort and time on it.

 

If both parties would agree to the CK, then that would be a different topic for discussion, but just solely without both parties agreeing to it, I don't think someone should get the power to ultimately halt somebodies progression on the server, even if it was just an indefinite admin jail, it may as well be the same thing as deleting the character.

[2300]

Must’ve lost your damn mind… 

[Apex]

Idea is great, but the server is very grindy and as seen above people care more about assets than roleplay. That's mainly due to the fact that the server is very unbalanced between grinding and interaction, the latter is nowhere to be seen while the first is the only thing that people care about. Which they have every right to since the economy is very hard