Gang supressions & NLR

[Oli]

9 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

So, let me get this straight, cops having a "win" mentality is the root of all evils?

Does this mentality not also exist among gang members? If not, why do we have 10+ gang members robbing a convenience store with heavy weapons, surely if there was no caring about "winning" then a couple of them could just go with a pistol each and accept whatever RP happens?

When did I claim that cops have a win mentality in my post?

Using the same logic of yours, why would cops use the highest AP and strongest weapon allowed them if they were fine with whatever RP happens? The criminals you've mentioned have been in the server enough to afford rolling with a heavy whenever they want to and the 2 cops that died on this specific scene could've easily avoided dying if they didnt engage on as many people, we have POVs, from both the sides, showing the cops' were at fault 100% for trying becoming hero cops. They would've lost the fight even if we had SNS pistols because they inserted themselves willingly in a 2v10.

 

14 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

It's a shame that some of your members are feeling like they do not want to play, however the same can be said for PD members with regards to members of PD following interactions with Division Six members, the numerous large-scale shootouts over a felony evading charge which turn into 5+ murder of a government employee have really got tiring. We've had multiple members put in LOAs due to these situations, so if you want us to feel sorry for them it's not going to happen, we've been feeling the same way for the past month or so over this stuff.

We couldnt care less whether you feel sorry for us not wanting to play or not, that really doesnt interest any of us. I'm also sorry for the lives you've lost in such a horrific way, my condolences.

 

17 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

In relation to the simple topic of suppression checks,  these are approved by people outside of PD and require more than just our word that something happened, no one is getting pulled over while going at 80km/h for a suppression check without there first being evidence that they are affiliated with a gang being suppressed - if you're trying to claim that you are, you're either lying or you've forgotten some interaction you've had which has resulted in you being labelled as affiliated with a suppressed gang. That said you're more than welcome to pursue IC avenues if you feel that PD's actions could be considered IC harassment.

My suggestion isnt about IC actions but about gangs getting NLRed while interacting with PD, just like we do when interacting with other gangs in a big scale fight where we're FORCED to stop beefing as the beef was NLRed.

[Oli]

An example of FM forcing an NLR state between criminal factions.

[Borrelli]

20 minutes ago, Kayta said:

I'd like to invite you to try to roleplay as a criminal with one of the organizations you listed, after which you can give your opinion on it thx 

Please enlighten me on your lengthy experience as RPing a LEO and also what tactics you have used to try and get around the suppression ICly?

My opinion is the opinion on the other side of the argument, claiming that my opinion is somehow invalid because it doesn't match yours simply illustrates that this argument will go nowhere and is not worth anyones time.

[Borrelli]

11 minutes ago, Oli said:

When did I claim that cops have a win mentality in my post?

Using the same logic of yours, why would cops use the highest AP and strongest weapon allowed them if they were fine with whatever RP happens? The criminals you've mentioned have been in the server enough to afford rolling with a heavy whenever they want to and the 2 cops that died on this specific scene could've easily avoided dying if they didnt engage on as many people, we have POVs, from both the sides, showing the cops' were at fault 100% for trying becoming hero cops. They would've lost the fight even if we had SNS pistols because they inserted themselves willingly in a 2v10.

 

We couldnt care less whether you feel sorry for us not wanting to play or not, that really doesnt interest any of us. I'm also sorry for the lives you've lost in such a horrific way, my condolences.

 

My suggestion isnt about IC actions but about gangs getting NLRed while interacting with PD, just like we do when interacting with other gangs in a big scale fight where we're FORCED to stop beefing as the beef was NLRed.

Numerous posts on this thread tie the issue to win mentality, while that may not be the intent of your topic, the thread is not exclusively for your opinions and as such I responded to these opinions in addition to your own.

 

Multiple people have pointed out the issues with your suggestion so I didn't feel it needed to be addressed again, that said..... PD vs a Gang does not equal Gang vs Gang. PD are fighting crime, not specific individuals, now if your actions draw attention to your organisation through your crimes then you are going to get the attention of PD who will attempt to combat this.

PD have to build casefiles over months in order to do this sort of thing whereas gangs simply just need to have "beef" for a few days which then results in the scenarios you are describing which result in FM enforcing some sort of NLR on all members of the gangs involved. Do not try and claim that this "beef" is in any way equivelent to the effort that members of the LSPD and LSSD's investigative divisions put in.

[alexalex303]

26 minutes ago, Oli said:

An example of FM forcing an NLR state between criminal factions.

Do you believe that a cop searching you is the same as an enemy gang member robbing/killing you? Honest question.

[Oli]

1 minute ago, Borrelli said:

Numerous posts on this thread tie the issue to win mentality, while that may not be the intent of your topic, the thread is not exclusively for your opinions and as such I responded to these opinions in addition to your own.

And that's why I've asked for an admin to clean the thread of any off-topic posts, I'm trying my best to keep it away from a crims vs cops thread yet both sides have been going at it with points all irrelevant to the topic.
 

 

5 minutes ago, Borrelli said:

Multiple people have pointed out the issues with your suggestion so I didn't feel it needed to be addressed again, that said..... PD vs a Gang does not equal Gang vs Gang. PD are fighting crime, not specific individuals, now if your actions draw attention to your organisation through your crimes then you are going to get the attention of PD who will attempt to combat this.

PD have to build casefiles over months in order to do this sort of thing whereas gangs simply just need to have "beef" for a few days which then results in the scenarios you are describing which result in FM enforcing some sort of NLR on all members of the gangs involved. Do not try and claim that this "beef" is in any way equivelent to the effort that members of the LSPD and LSSD's investigative divisions put in.

What you're fighting should not matter. If the NYPD successfully killed/captured every single Crip member they know, why would they still suppress anyone in blue that hasnt done anything?

Gang kill PD > PD responds > Gang dies > NLR should take place. I see no reason why NLR shouldnt take place after most of the gang dies, the same way it does when its gang vs gang.
You're putting everything you do to a higher level while looking down at everything a criminal does, making one think you actually believe this crim RPer actually steals for a living IRL, he's roleplaying, same way you are.

You claim that NLR shouldnt take place because you have casefiles built over months whereas gangs just kill over a few days beef. I have no clue who you are but it says you've been around since 2017 so you've seen how gangs in early 2020 used to fight back for months (NLA vs WCA is a great example), they used to suppress anyone wearing the enemy gang's colour, and it stayed the same until the NLR rule was adjusted to where you would need NEW reasons to hit said gang as said gang previously died for the reasons you've beefed them for.

Smaller gangs were getting bullied out the server before the NLR rule was adjusted and it made more sense. I see no reason why shouldnt PD have the same rule apply to them whenever they win a big scale fight against a gang that they're suppressing as they have just eliminated all the threat that they've scared of ICly.

[Oli]

7 minutes ago, alexalex303 said:

Do you believe that a cop searching you is the same as an enemy gang member robbing/killing you? Honest question.

Irrelevant. I'm not against gang suppression.

I'm suggesting it should be NLRed if the gang being suppressed die (most of them) to PD in a big scale fight. The same way it is for crims vs crims.

[Harveyyy]

I think the argument here is IC actions, IC consequences. The reasoning behind this suppression on Division 6 is the instances where cops were shot and killed. That makes total sense in my opinion and I think no one can argue that this gang suppression is invalid due to their "IC actions".

I think the issue boils down to these specific situations that resulted in approving this gang suppression which by the sound of it, there was breach of the server rules. 

I remember when I was in Irish and we were robbing LifeInvader, we parked our bikes Infront of the bank to make it clear that there are 15+ Irish inside. Unfortunately, mistakes were made and 4 cops hopped out on us and aimed guns. One of us managed to hold a cop at gunpoint and take them hostage, however, one cop decided to start a shootout, by shooting the hostage-taker and the hostage in the crossfire that was at gunpoint which resulted in us shooting back and killing them. After this bank robbery, we started getting gang suppressed and when we asked why is this happening, a detective said "you guys killed 4 cops at LifeInvader, what do you expect?" - if that situation was reported, it would've been voided. But no, we didn't report it as we didn't lose anything, and little did we know, this was going to heavily affect us on the long run. Now I'm not saying this happens very often, and if it does, you should report it, but it seems that similar situations happened which led to this suppression to be approved by a 3rd party.

I think the way to fix this, and make it fair for both parties, is to review these situations and void them if confirmed by staff that a rulebreach occurred. Because I've personally seen it when 10 Division 6 were robbing chumash store and 2 cops hopped out and started blasting everyone and obviously they died because they were heavily outnumbered. 5 days later, they're being gang suppressed for their "IC actions" because that wasn't voided. I'm not just talking about Division 6, but in general.

Furthermore, if you think someone is trying their best to ruin your experience and constantly charging you with baseless charges for OOC reasons such as gang beef on their alt characters, you should bring this up to LFM so it can be investigated properly.

[TheCactus]

14 hours ago, Barny said:

Hey, sir!
My criminal character(the main one) haven't been in a gang for months on end. I am not shooting at cops ever. For some reason I get the same treatment. Pulled over while going 80, dragged out - searched person & vehicle.

It's not about if you are shooting at cops or not, it's about if they like/hate you on an OOC level.

"Haven't even been in a gang for months on". Okay Tyrone Clinton.. I could even drop footage of you being on a gang freq but I am not allowed.
The amount of cap in this bitch is insane. I understand some of you might be mad after a couple of arrest where you lost something but at least don't come here and drop lies for the sake of saying something cause it's just pathetic.

Why are you bringing in the "OOC hate" and seeing it as hate towards in real life people when we are roleplaying the consequences of your IC actions. It's a game, hello? If you kill cops in a videogame I am still going to treat you like any other human being. Probably even better since you are a player of the server so we have something in common. Better cut this OOC hate crap when it ain't there.

Edited February 10, 2023 by TheCactus

[Xoza]

3 hours ago, Harveyyy said:

I remember when I was in Irish and we were robbing LifeInvader, we parked our bikes Infront of the bank to make it clear that there are 15+ Irish inside. Unfortunately, mistakes were made and 4 cops hopped out on us and aimed guns. One of us managed to hold a cop at gunpoint and take ...

Greetings,

As many of you know, I main a Law Enforcement Officer. I am not speaking on behalf of any department, only expressing opinion from my experience and knowledge of emergency response.

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I have seen and been part of multiple incidents and investigations that confirm the involvement of specific individuals or groups who were involved in killing or 'wiping' groups. Simply because everyone is dead, doesn't mean there isn't evidence or someone didn't witness it. I and many others have been a pivotal source of that information. Any witnesses out of sight, including law enforcement in air or observing from afar, body cameras, and even officers giving any sort of details over the radio beforehand can provide information to who is involved and is common practice.

You would have to kill all witnesses and clean up the scene completely, and still hope someone didn't relay information before they were shot down, to 'get away with it'. Information is an extremely powerful asset to law enforcement and could be to criminal as well.

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As long as the gang exists, there will be a record, just like there's a record on a person. The response with suppression, reinforces the evidence that police is primarily a responsive unit. Increased crime leads to increased response. Gang Suppression doesn't just all of a sudden come into play from nowhere, it requires weeks of incidents and information. The higher the threat, the quicker it happens. If you keep poking a bear, it's not just going to sit there.

Is suppression demoralizing? Sure, but that's the intent, to suppress continued criminal or hostile behavior. Suppression itself isn't hostile, more a, you have angered the bear and they're checking to see if you are going to continue to do so, even after hostilities, or time in the Department of "Corrections".

With that said, if anything, NLR could be more from the criminal element side. I wouldn't say enforced, but more self imposed. You wouldn't shoot up Police go to jail, where they are supposed to rehabilitate and correct your behavior, then come out, right to shooting cops again. At that point, I'd think a bit of FearRP could play a part as a caution, simply in not wanting to get caught again for a while and enjoy some freedom. But that doesn't mean you can't have your fun and do illegal activities, more that they should more covert.

There are many ways to change an outcome, adapt to a situation or alter the course of events. I'm not telling you how to play your character, and yes, it's a game, but there's a huge goal in part of realism, especially in law enforcement to a degree that there are several things even I disagree with. Every action results in consequence, even for LEOs. There are several active criminal elements that aren't being suppressed. You have to ask yourself, what are they doing right, or wrong?

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Most of the conflict encounters surrounding reason have always been "you don't have a reason to do this", whether it be amount of units, or simply detaining or arresting someone. Law enforcement doesn't really do something without a reason and just because you're not aware of it, or don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's all part of the roleplay as well as it's discretion or caution. The penal code is publicly available and anyone can view or conclude hundreds of possible reasons an LEO may be engaging with you. As it stands now, I believe there are plenty of criminal activities that go unseen or unpunished and encourage anyone to count them.

There are always several concerns surrounding Law Enforcement action against others and I'm with you that certain things shouldn't happen, or should happen less, but this is also equally the case for criminal elements. Could it be better? Sure! But this has to come from both sides. I'm in support of more criminal RP and opportunities and have made more suggestions surrounding civilian and criminal RP then law enforcement.

Despite seeing accusations as exaggerated and honestly not seeing it much first hand myself, or simply being blind to it with my difference of opinion and possible bias, doesn't mean they don't happen or shouldn't. I'm absolutely open to the improvement of RP for everyone, including criminal play and open to further discussion, explanation and viewing of evidence of these concerns which would be shared with our leadership as it should be with any concern surrounding behavior of our faction.

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In the end, Law Enforcement is not just another gang. You are literally fighting the governing/policing body of the state of which you reside, which rarely ends well for anyone. With so many involved there will be a win mentality, but there will be plenty of RP opportunity within, surrounding, and after if your open to it and let it happen naturally. At this point everyone simply needs to weigh it and decide for yourself the direction you or your group want to go, and how adapt and best handle each situation.

TLDR Version                     

I main a Law Enforcement Officer, expressing my personal views based on experience and knowledge in emergency response and not the views of my faction or its members.

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I have seen incidents and investigations that showed involvement of individuals or groups in killing or wiping groups. Evidence and witnesses exist, even if everyone is dead. I and others have been a source of information. Information from law enforcement, including air observers, body cameras, and radio communication, can identify those involved. To completely "get away with it," one would have to kill all witnesses and clean up the scene, without hope of any information being relayed. Information is a powerful asset for both law enforcement and criminals.

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Records exists as long as a gang exists, just like a person's record. Increased crime leads to increased police response and suppression. Gang suppression requires weeks of incidents and information, and the higher the threat, the quicker it happens. Suppression is intended to suppress criminal behavior. NLR could be more self-imposed by criminals, to avoid getting caught again. There are ways to alter the outcome in the game, but every action has consequences, even for LEOs. There are active criminal elements that are not being suppressed, and it's worth considering what they are doing right or wrong.

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LEOs don't act without a reason and their actions are guided by the penal code. While some actions may not seem justified, they are based on available information and discretion. Conflict often arises when people feel an action is unjustified but there may be reasons they are not aware of. Both LEOs and criminal elements can improve RP, and any concerns should be shared with leadership for consideration. I support improved RP for all, including criminals, and am open to discussion and evidence of any concerns.

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Law Enforcement is not a gang, but part of the governing body of the state. Conflict with them usually doesn't end well. There's RP opportunities within, around and after a confrontation. It's up to each person/group to weigh their options and handle situations as they arise.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Xoza

[Oli]

6 minutes ago, Xoza said:

I have seen and been part of multiple incidents and investigations that confirm the involvement of specific individuals or groups who were involved in killing or 'wiping' groups. Simply because everyone is dead, doesn't mean there isn't evidence or someone didn't witness it. I and many others have been a pivotal source of that information. Any witnesses out of sight, including law enforcement in air or observing from afar, body cameras, and even officers giving any sort of details over the radio beforehand can provide information to who is involved and is common practice.

I'm talking when the gang dies, not LEO units. If you successfully eliminate 20+ members of a gang, NLR should take place just like it does to gang vs gang interactions as realistically you've eliminated the gang you're suppressing.

10 minutes ago, Xoza said:

As long as the gang exists, there will be a record, just like there's a record on a person. The response with suppression, reinforces the evidence that police is primarily a responsive unit. Increased crime leads to increased response. Gang Suppression doesn't just all of a sudden come into play from nowhere, it requires weeks of incidents and information. The higher the threat, the quicker it happens. If you keep poking a bear, it's not just going to sit there.

Using that same logic, why shouldnt gangs have the ability to build up beef and continuously harass a rival gang over and over and over, no matter how many times the later gang get wiped and just completely ignore NLR?

I'm not saying to start treating us as legals after we die. But our characters have been killed while fighting the gang suppression, why would it not be NLRed?

15 minutes ago, Xoza said:

There are always several concerns surrounding Law Enforcement action against others and I'm with you that certain things shouldn't happen, or should happen less, but this is also equally the case for criminal elements. Could it be better? Sure! But this has to come from both sides.

I agree, both sides definitely have the ability to becoming better.

[Xoza]

9 minutes ago, Oli said:

I'm talking when the gang dies, not LEO units. If you successfully eliminate 20+ members of a gang, NLR should take place just like it does to gang vs gang interactions as realistically you've eliminated the gang you're suppressing.

There's absolutely an opportunity to do that, but a gang is operating as a group, not a single individual. If the group continues to 'fight back' and participate in criminal activity, the suppression will continue. When a group is 'wiped' and the activities die down, the suppression could as well.

[Oli]

3 minutes ago, Xoza said:

There's absolutely an opportunity to do that, but a gang is operating as a group, not a single individual. If the group continues to 'fight back' and participate in criminal activity, the suppression will continue. When a group is 'wiped' and the activities die down, the suppression could as well.

I can argue the same in a gang vs gang interaction, why should the NLR be in "immediate effect" (Quoted from Aldarine's message) but for PD vs gang the gang has to wait until PD decide its the right time? (When all the activities die down, although the group has already been wiped, making sense for NLR to take place).

[MrSilky]

We can look at the length of suppressions as a sign of goodwill to the criminal community, but what needs to be understood is that law enforcement is reactive, meaning that if you do not wish to be the target of the gang unit so heavily, then you shouldn't make it your personality to murder officers. This, and the issues of NLR, will be discussed by senior staff in our next meeting.

I will be locking this thread to prevent further toxicity - thank you to all sides for the constructive comments and thank you @Oli especially for raising this issue.