Changing application process

[Trac3rZ]

(*) Skip the paragraph right after this one if you don't want to read the math.

As I see it now, the application process is not effective. Just look at the concurrent number of player at anytime, it rarely goes past 400. From the time I applied for the server about 3 weeks ago until now, I checked the number of player almost everyday, and it rarely increases. Let's say one day quiz team finishes 300 apps. About 50% gets in (don't know the stat so don't quote me), which is 150 people get in. Assume 10% of those people can play everyday, which means that we should see an increase of 15 players per day. Let just assume about two thirds of those people playing for the hype and stops after a day, so we should still have 5 players increasing a day (really low for 150 people getting accepted), which is 105 players increasing in 3 weeks. So number of player should increase from 300 to 400 after 3 weeks, which (kinda) makes sense because of my math, but empirically it shows otherwise. The number of player stays the same.

The system now takes around 3-4 weeks for a new player to get accepted. The wait is long, and even longer for people who waits a month just to get a denied email. In those time, people who applied might already find another server X, and starts there. Staff reviews application for nothing. Waste time for both applicants and the staff.

I want to make Eclipse a great server and everyone in GTA RP community knows about it, but still preserves quality. Here's my proposal.

 

((Proposal starts))

Remove the part where you have to write short answers. At the same time increase the number of multiple choice question, make it last for several rounds.

Here's an example. Let's say we have a bank of questions ranging from basic knowledge to RP-ready knowledge. Pick a set in the bank of question and rotates so it is not the same every time.

Let's say we have a set of 60 multiple choice questions. And we want it to last 4 rounds: 

Round 1: First round consists of 15 easy questions about the server. You have to pass with at least 14/15 questions to advance, and you don't know the result until 4-6 hours later (to prevent people just applying to troll, or apply with different account in case of failing the quiz).

Round 2: This round will have 15 questions about basic commands in game. Also have to pass with 14/15 questions. Same wait time applies here. Failing this round makes you redo the first round. Passing this round create a checkpoint, which if you fail round 3 or 4, you will start at round 3, not round 1.

Round 3: Also 15 questions about the rules of the game: meta gaming, power gaming, OOC, IC rules, etc. We can be lenient here and makes it so that they can pass with 13/15. Failing this round reset you back to the checkpoint. Same wait time applies.

Round 4: Last 15 questions about some real RP situation and how to behave in each. Pass with 12/15 (situation is always hard because there can be a thousand outcomes). Fail this round resets you back to the start of round 3 (learn the rule first before knowing what rules applied in each situation). Wait time can be applied here too.

If they can pass all 4 rounds, they deserved to be in Eclipse.

Advantages:

+) Doesn't waste staff time, so they can help with in game reports or stuff in game. (Everyone wants to play ikr).

+) Significantly reduce wait time for applicants. If we follow the wait time like above, there are 4 rounds, and they need to wait at least 16-24 hours to complete an application provided that they could complete all 14/15 questions correct. This means on average, the wait time is from 1 to 3 days depends on the applicant. How easy it is to get into an elite server.

+) 4 rounds consist of 50-60 multiple choice questions will cover more knowledge than 10 questions straight from the rule book. It's easy to copy and paraphrase, harder to actually think and pick the correct answer.

+) Increase our server size, also quality because of the point above.

Disadvantages: (It will be a biased proposal if I don't list disadvantages here)

+) The time it takes to make those questions. Believe me, the upfront cost is high, but in long term, you don't even have to read boring answers and such.

+) Change code to adapt to this new system. Easy. I'm a software developer myself. What we need to do is remove the code for written part and copy and paste the code for multiple choice part to make it to choose from our bank of questions. And somehow figures a way to add the wait time between rounds.

TL/DR: Proposal for a new system of application. Reduce wait time for applicant (from 3 weeks - 1 month to 1 - 3 days). Reducing wait time while improving the knowledge of new player. This has benefits for current players (more populated server), staff (more time to spend in game), new player (less wait time), and server quality (increasing knowledge of new player).

P/s: Read TL/DR if you don't have time. Read advantages and disadvantages if you wants to know upsides and downsides of this system. Read from ((Proposal starts)) if you want to see how the system is implemented. Read everything to see why I have to write these.

P/ss: Criticism is welcomed. But let it be constructive criticism. Don't just throw a -1 in here. Let us all contribute one way or another to Eclipse. Let's make Eclipse RP great again. ((/me drops mic))

Edited April 14, 2019 by Trac3rZ
Spelling

[Randul]

By fair the biggest flaw with your system is once the answers are available online, the server may aswell have no quiz. 

Without the written part their is no real way to ensure someone has actually read our rules and understands them. 

[Trac3rZ]

15 minutes ago, Randyrandul said:

By fair the biggest flaw with your system is once the answers are available online, the server may aswell have no quiz. 

Without the written part their is no real way to ensure someone has actually read our rules and understands them. 

I'm aware of that. That's why we have a bank of questions, so none will take the exact same quiz each time. Trying multiple time will waste the person who write the answer a lot of time, since you have to wait between each round before knowing the score. Correct answer will not be given.

To be honest. I tried to pass the test with 100%, so I tried to find answer to one multiple choice question online. There's nothing I could find.

About the part where you mentioned understanding the rule with multiple choice question. It's totally doable, given that you know how to phrase the question and answer in a way such that it exposes everything you should know. Look at your physics, chemistry, or other social science test. It's multiple choice. You don't know the correct answer if you don't do the homework.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Trac3rZ
Clarity

[Trac3rZ]

And remember there's a lot of variables we can change here. Number of questions, wait time between each round, difficulty of each round, number of questions to test. If we put wait time to 1 day, is someone who's cheating willing enough to wait 1 day to see only the number of correct answer? (just saying). We can always restrict one app per IP address per day. But that will complicate the code for devs.

Except for the last 2 questions on written part about scenario, first eight is straight from the rule book. Paraphrasing is high school stuff. I read some reports on here, some people playing the game don't even know the difference between meta gaming and power gaming. I don't blame the question, it's just not always effective from what I've seen.

[Buggiman]

I am waiting for my application to get answered but -1 from me because @Randyrandul has a valid point on this one. It will reduce the quality increase the quantity. What you gonna do with the quantity without quality? It's not a round by round shooter game. You are not waiting on matchmaking to get your game started.

On 4/15/2019 at 12:35 AM, Randyrandul said:

By fair the biggest flaw with your system is once the answers are available online, the server may aswell have no quiz. 

Without the written part their is no real way to ensure someone has actually read our rules and understands them. 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Buggiman

[Trac3rZ]

2 hours ago, Buggiman said:

I am waiting for my application to get answered but -1 from me because @Randyrandul has a valid point on this one. It will reduce the quality increase the quantity. What you gonna do with the quantity without quality? It's not a round by round shooter game. You are not waiting on matchmaking to get your game started.

 

Prove the current application has good quality. Like I said above, 8 out of 10 questions are from the rule book, and paraphrasing is simple stuff. The last 2 scenarios, imo, are good questions. It's not enough though. To answer 50 to 60 multiple choice questions requires a lot more comprehensive knowledge. You are expected to know almost everything. 

To prove my point, you can just go to report section in this forum and see how people states the wrong rule in the report.

Leaked answer? Like I said we can have a bank of questions and all kind of variables we can change to prevent that. 

Multiple choice is not bad. Just look at how university and high school exam are testing using multiple choice questions to test your comprehensive knowledge (of course I know written exam has some benefits too). Random will get you on average 25%. 

[Buggiman]

2 minutes ago, Trac3rZ said:

To prove my point, you can just go to report section in this forum and see how people states the wrong rule in the report.

I said it will reduce the quality. I didn't say Eclipse has %100 quality based on their community. But trust me, Eclipse is one of the best RP server out there.

3 minutes ago, Trac3rZ said:

Leaked answer? Like I said we can have a bank of questions and all kind of variables we can change to prevent that. 

It's not a Algebra 2 how many questions you can produce about a single subject such as RP? Even tho you change the location of the answers once they leaked they can just compare the texts. I'm not saying process isn't slow. Maybe they should put more man power into it. 

[ish]

Great idea to be honest. The staff won't be burdened by getting more applications then they can handle a day. People won't have to wait a month to join, and it clears more staff time for more important stuff like in-game monitoring or other issues.

As for the fact people are afraid the quality of roleplay will get effected it could be safeguarded by a simple 3 strike system. If a <New Player> does to much things that are considered bad RP you can just let them re-do the application.

Bad RP? > warning > no effect > reapply(if it were minor offences).

This is enough of an annoyance to think before you act.

As for the fear of the test becoming worthless because it's online. This can be easily avoided by making questions state situations instead of asking something like: What's metagaming.

For instance:

Less good question:   What is deathmatching

Great question: Somebody sneaks up behind you and without saying anything shoots you through the head.
Whats wrong with this scenario?

 

If you are trying to look up answer online it is easy when it's just a phrase but to get the correct answer when presented with a scenario requires understanding of the rule in question.


 

[Trac3rZ]

15 hours ago, ish said:

Great idea to be honest. The staff won't be burdened by getting more applications then they can handle a day. People won't have to wait a month to join, and it clears more staff time for more important stuff like in-game monitoring or other issues.

As for the fact people are afraid the quality of roleplay will get effected it could be safeguarded by a simple 3 strike system. If a <New Player> does to much things that are considered bad RP you can just let them re-do the application.

Bad RP? > warning > no effect > reapply(if it were minor offences).

This is enough of an annoyance to think before you act.

As for the fear of the test becoming worthless because it's online. This can be easily avoided by making questions state situations instead of asking something like: What's metagaming.

For instance:

Less good question:   What is deathmatching

Great question: Somebody sneaks up behind you and without saying anything shoots you through the head.
Whats wrong with this scenario?

 

If you are trying to look up answer online it is easy when it's just a phrase but to get the correct answer when presented with a scenario requires understanding of the rule in question.


 

This. How you phrase each question is what make multiple choice super effective to expose your weakness. Doing application can make the staff busy all year round. However, if application is done as multiple choice, we can dedicate staff to change the application 3 months or 6 months each. The hardest time is to write the question at the beginning. After that you can just paraphrase to prevent googling. This process maybe takes 2-5 days maximum.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Trac3rZ

[Syndrux]

-1 The application shows that you both understand the rules and can be a bit creative in your RP. A quiz system like that would not be able to filter out low effort attempts. I prefer quality RP over a bunch of clueless players trying to deathmatch everything that moves.

[zakara711]

+1 

I am unfortunately one of the people that has waited almost 4 weeks to receive an email stating that I was declined for my scenario questions. I had the correct information in my answers but the admin wanted me to clarify some points. 

But unfortunately the system does not allow communication with the admin and also any scope to just clarify any points for a quick resubmission.

I now have to resubmit and wait potentially another 4 weeks.

I am a hardcore RP member with vast amounts of experience on RPUK and WOW.

2 months wait to play on ERP seems a bit drastic. I think something has to give or they will end up losing a large array of people.

End of the day ERP is supposed to be a community that evolves........

Just my opinion and I’m still very excited to continue trying to join and won’t give up.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by zakara711
Spelling mistakes

[Stealthoneill]

Not sure my input counts, as I'm still waiting for approval but a -1 for me. 

Having a multiple choice system makes passing easy and the answers would end up online, no matter the high question pool. Having a system that requires you to type in answers and not only answer according to the rules but interpret the rules from different scenarios allows an admin to see what kind of player they are approving into the system. Handwritten answers indicate a level of maturity from a player. By writing a well constructed, legible answer you're showing the Quiz team a lot about yourself than a simple tick box would. 

[Wizzidy]

I am going to -1 this. As a member of the quiz team I see a lot of different things and take into account a lot of different variables to make sure the kind of people we see on the server are going to contribute to a healthy role play system. There is no rapid fire quiz that can replace a human mind really and ultimately it is not needed. The huge rush of applications totally drowned the team at first but as they added more of us to the team we are really getting through them quick. Please trust us to do a good job and know that there is a good reason it takes so long.

[ish]

5 hours ago, Stealthoneill said:

Handwritten answers indicate a level of maturity from a player.

Assuming the person is a native English speaker. If not, the whole indication can give a false perspective.

 

3 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

II see a lot of different things and take into account a lot of different variables to make sure the kind of people we see on the server are going to contribute to a healthy role play system.

 

The huge rush of applications totally drowned the team at first but as they added more of us to the team we are really getting through them quick. Please trust us to do a good job and know that there is a good reason it takes so long.

Out of interest, what are these variables?
Also, without the intention of disregarding the hard work of the team, 3 weeks+ waiting times are not fast for a server you don't know but are interested in.

Assuming some don't pass in one go, you're asking people to invest multiple weeks(months).









Either way, I'm already loving the community so far. Beeing able to have a mature discussion regarding a topic on a forum is a rarity in itself.

Thanks for the contribution so far everyone!

 

[Edit] This just popped up in my head but consider this:  Due to the waiting time beeing several weeks in some cases, some players prolly won't even wait if they get accepted or not. Resulting in alot of work, time and effort in basicly ghost applications.

Edited April 19, 2019 by ish

[djnugget]

4 hours ago, Wizzidy said:

I am going to -1 this. As a member of the quiz team I see a lot of different things and take into account a lot of different variables to make sure the kind of people we see on the server are going to contribute to a healthy role play system. There is no rapid fire quiz that can replace a human mind really and ultimately it is not needed. The huge rush of applications totally drowned the team at first but as they added more of us to the team we are really getting through them quick. Please trust us to do a good job and know that there is a good reason it takes so long.

^ This

[Wizzidy]

5 hours ago, ish said:

Assuming the person is a native English speaker. If not, the whole indication can give a false perspective.

 

Out of interest, what are these variables?
Also, without the intention of disregarding the hard work of the team, 3 weeks+ waiting times are not fast for a server you don't know but are interested in.

Assuming some don't pass in one go, you're asking people to invest multiple weeks(months).









Either way, I'm already loving the community so far. Beeing able to have a mature discussion regarding a topic on a forum is a rarity in itself.

Thanks for the contribution so far everyone!

 

[Edit] This just popped up in my head but consider this:  Due to the waiting time beeing several weeks in some cases, some players prolly won't even wait if they get accepted or not. Resulting in alot of work, time and effort in basicly ghost applications.

Firstly if they are not a native English speaker and their application gives a false narrative they are going to fail either way as good English is part of role playing on an English RP server... and as far as the variables taken into account, I am sure you can understand but the methods and rubric for applications are policy and therefore cannot be shared. Application time of 3 weeks is a lot of time, however the number of applications we get are a lot of applications. Please understand that the fact that the door is even still open is a miracle with the twitch rush...

[ish]

50 minutes ago, Wizzidy said:

Please understand that the fact that the door is even still open is a miracle with the twitch rush...

Fair enough, thanks for the insight and sharing your outlook! You do provide some valid points I haven't considered so I might have to reassess my opinion on the matter.
Either way, i wish you'll a nice evening. I'm gonna go grab a cold one!

[MusketDeezNuts]

-1 currently our staff completes roughly 400 a day. Most likely even more. Just have patience.

[Kris]

No longer relevant.