New crim update, banks/drugs/weapon damage

[Spizor]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:50 PM, Bala said:

The update isn't just about adding new things, it's about changing how people operate in the server and naturally people are resistant to change. If i've built a super lab in an apartment and i'm making money hand over fist, I'm going to be upset that I can't do that anymore but at the same time, being shut away in an instanced world farming money does absolutely fuck all on an RP server. 

If one of the goals of disabling apartment labs was to increase the interaction between players outside of their apartments, the goal is no where near accomplished. I personally never sat in a lab for hours or days to farm money, but to keep up with my turfs. Which is almost nearly impossible now as a small lab of 10 tables and a few vents for example can cost anywhere from 2 million and up because players are selling properties for higher prices IF you can even find someone selling a property as it's now the new "meta"

Also to add, I have a lot of experience in both LEO and criminal characters and I can speak for a lot of people when I tell you that a lot of criminals are demotivated to even play any more. The updates shouldn't be about what makes it more realistic because if that's the case then a lot of stuff needs changing. It should be about what makes the community happy.

And I want to ask a question, before this update was rolled out, were you not interacting with anyone at all? No, you were, and it was completely fine how it was. Now, in my opinion, interactions will be even less as less people want to even play when they have spent over half a million on a lab that can no longer be used and that's not including how much the apartment was.

Now, if we want to talk about realism, how are tables heating up at random times any realistic at all? Surely they would all heat up at the same time or a few seconds apart, no? That is exactly my point.

The server doesn't need to be 100% realistic as it will be unhealthy, unplayable and not fun.

This drug update has kept the people that were "staying inside 24/7 and cooking" remaining the same as they already had properties or made enough to buy one, and left the ones that haven't "cooked and stayed inside 24/7", demotivated to play.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Spizor

[Bala]

The reality is that you cannot please everybody. If I had spent a lot of money on an apartment lab and it was a great way to make money, I’d probably feel some type of way about it too.

You guys asked for a criminal update, I asked for a criminal update and we are getting one and the important detail is that this is not done yet. What has been released is a third of what’s to come. 

The first update objectively seems like more of a balancing update or tweaks but the second third is where we’re adding new content to the server. Stuff that is actually really interesting and is the sort of update that will make the difference.

The final third is the update to the drugs but that will be later on I assume. 

We have the foremost authorities putting their heads together on this. It’s not just NBDY deciding randomly to change x and y. There is real input from different areas of the server that deal with crim. 

I get why people might be sceptic but to be honest, even as a predominately police roleplayer, some of the planned updates are giving me a semi, they’re that good.

Keep the faith and you’ll be rewarded in time. 

[Ritchie Stones]

On 4/20/2022 at 1:56 PM, alexalex303 said:

The fact is that with a ~12 hour cooldown and four banks that means eight bank robberies a day, up to eight two hour long hostage situations per day. Add onto it people regularly checking timers and hitting banks almost on the dot did not help the issue. I for one did not appreciate the amount of bank robberies and wish they were more special than just another check-list grind activity.

Alternative ways to get packed money were added with the ATM robbery mechanic which requires very little investment but provides you with packed money. A group of people can easily farm them with almost no risk. On to the point of not being able to sustain three turfs of the same type, maybe that isn't needed. Do you really need all three turfs for roleplay reasons, or do you want them for imports? If you want them for imports, then more grind is more benefits.

The damage on weapons could've been more selective, however, in my opinion, the only damage buff that should be rolled back is on the pistols. I think that heavy weapons in general should be more scary and do more damage. Having a heavy weapon should be a huge threat and even the AK sometimes felt tame, especially when everyone had body armor. That's no longer the case.

I understand why people might be a bit disheartened when a way to make money was patched, but a lot of the things that were being done were not healthy for the server. I get that currency opens up avenues, but can anyone honestly say that refilling bottles in a mega property with sixty tables from the floor was good RP or provided any RP? Sitting in that same interior for hours or days, with the only requirement being materials that can be stacked in safes on walls?

All of the things that were added, the bug fix for the water, the more danger to the tables, no more cooking in apartments, they were all added for interaction, for roleplay. I get that when you're making money interaction is your enemy, but this is a roleplay server and interaction is the basis for roleplay. Being locked away in an apartment for hours is being locked away from roleplay.

actualy despite i lose my way of making money, i admire that there is no longer cooking in appartments, because its true ther is no rp, 
what i would actual like very cool "even if only temporary, is that we could set up the tables outside anywhere on the map, 
imagine a gang holding up that large investment in the army airfield or somewhere in the woods,
its massive dangerous RP, now you could have 10 ppl with guns protecting that part even helping out on cooking, 
please alow us to cool more tables with one waterbotle, its should be more instable but not a pain to hold up in having 300 water bottles, 

i actualy love the direction the server is taking btw about the changes comming up im actualy really impatient since months for it to happen, 
and i hope it will provide a lot more freedom and also a lot more rp and random situations. wich is the actual reason people came to eclipse, most of us just got distracted by the oppertunity to grind money, been guilty myself 

[Buck Rogers]

Complety agree, criminal work now feels pointless just feels like "how can we adjust the rules to make the police win every time". 

I can understand initiation of new systems and removing the old but what was the point in removing the current, when you don't have the new one ready to go?

"Not rp to not interact whilst cooking drugs".. not sure what drug dealers and cooks these guys know irl, good ones certainly ain't running around telling everyone / making themselves targets.

Criminal role play feels like they want to discourage it to me because you can't actually do half the shit real criminals would do..

[Bala]

3 minutes ago, NeejaHalcyon said:

This is like saying you are thirsty and then someone spits in your mouth, and you are expected to say thank you. "Don't worry, we'll get you water later." 

It's disingenuous to say you can't please everyone, when obviously the majority are displeased. 

It's just a long line of decisions, and actions that point to this very much being a law server, for legal players. That's all. 

I'm really glad that you can share such pearls of wisdom on a burner account with three posts.

Update isn't done, so quit your bellyaching.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Bala

[Bala]

What point is that exactly? You are forming an opinion BEFORE the update has been completed. You haven’t even had your mouth spat in yet, this is just holding it open ready. 

You could quite easily make the case that implementing smaller, more regular updates is better than going for an all at once update. Since it’s easier to manage. 

Some stuff in the update worked, some requires tweaking. There is an open discussion between the devs and the criminals, where they can give direct feedback which is something we’ve not had before. 

I’m sorry that me being well informed on what’s coming makes me unable to share your lazy opinion. If you want to be negative and pessimistic on your burner account, go ahead. But personally, I’ve gassed for the new updates. 

As for your staff comment, you’re 0 for 2 now.

[Spizor]

So, this still doesn't answer my question. Apartment labs were disabled because it's "completely unrealistic" as per the popup that comes up, but, the tables heating up randomly is no where near realistic yet it was still pushed out in the update.

Also, why do we have to wait for another update to get an alternative to the thousands of money that people have lost, the motivation and the turfs becoming 100x harder to keep up with? Why was the disabling of apartment labs not delayed until an alternative was to be pushed out with it? Makes zero sense to me.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Spizor

[Stew Walker]

Similar problem im facing even in a property where a typical cook of 250 LSD now requires me to have 1,000 water bottles in safes. So on top of my hefty investment of around 5mill to make cooking as effortless and fast as possible, I am now required to invest another 350,000$ in water bottles if I wanted to maintain the pace I was cooking at prior. However, cooking in larger batches of 500(IE: 250 coke 250 LSD, which is common) would require 700,000$ investment of water bottles if you were to attempt it and so on. Tbf I wasn't prepared for this and now am just lost on how im supposed to be making that money...? ATMs?

250(quantity of cook) x 4(# of waters)= 1,000(total number of needed bottles) x 350$(price per bottle)

[Bala]

1 hour ago, Spizor said:

So, this still doesn't answer my question. Apartment labs were disabled because it's "completely unrealistic" as per the popup that comes up, but, the tables heating up randomly is no where near realistic yet it was still pushed out in the update.

Also, why do we have to wait for another update to get an alternative to the thousands of money that people have lost, the motivation and the turfs becoming 100x harder to keep up with? Why was the disabling of apartment labs not delayed until an alternative was to be pushed out with it? Makes zero sense to me.

They weren't removed because they are unrealistic.

They were removed because having people stashed away in interiors for hours was a poor mechanic for an RP server.

[Spizor]

8 minutes ago, Bala said:

They weren't removed because they are unrealistic.

They were removed because having people stashed away in interiors for hours was a poor mechanic for an RP server.

Okay, fair enough.

But can you explain to me how an update that made loads of people lose thousands of money wasn't poor? Can you also explain to me how exactly disabling apartment labs solved that issue when you can still cook in RVs, properties and houses?

"Stashed away for hours in interiors" was not solved, if you strongly believe that disabling apartment labs fixed that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Spizor

[Buck Rogers]

1 hour ago, Bala said:

They weren't removed because they are unrealistic.

They were removed because having people stashed away in interiors for hours was a poor mechanic for but

But... thats literally how a cook operates IRL? Good ones only get raided cause they've been scoped out / someone's got a big mouth. 

I'd be interested to see but I can already tell you it ain't bringing great rp, go the grow sites "PUT UR FUCKING HANDS UP" every 2 minutes.. so fun and engaging.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Buck Rogers
Missed a word.

[Phantas]

The proper nerf to cooking would have been removing lysergic and other acids from the import menu and making them harder to obtain similar to weed where you risk a lot more player intervention. Would have reduced frequency of cooking by miles since I'd say the majority of imports made a day are lysergic. 

Personally I'm fine with the water bug fix, and removal of apartment cooking, But risking losing a lab to even more rng just feels dumb. How rewarding is it really for pd to raid a lab due to a rng script than detective rp through means of investigation and utilization of snitches?

Edited April 26, 2022 by Phantas

[Bala]

Doesn't matter how they operate IRL. IRL means very little in Eclipse, especially on the criminal side of things.

It was a bad mechanic for interaction and now it's gone. There's gunna be a temporary substitute solution to tide us over then probably the final thing when the drug update comes.

For some of you this will be a bridge too far and you'll cycle out, that's why I think that those factions going around the time of the update is probably long term a good thing. It's easier to bring fresh factions through than to teach old factions new things.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Bala

[Dola]

7 minutes ago, Bala said:

Doesn't matter how they operate IRL. IRL means very little in Eclipse, especially on the criminal side of things.

It was a bad mechanic for interaction and now it's gone. There's gunna be a temporary substitute solution to tide us over then probably the final thing when the drug update comes.

For some of you this will be a bridge too far and you'll cycle out, that's why I think that those factions going around the time of the update is probably long term a good thing. It's easier to bring fresh factions through than to teach old factions new things.

Theres probably 1-2 factions at max that is still "going around" at this time including LSD because they race all the time and have something to do. All the other factions have disbanded or are dying/dead ever since this update came out. What ever happened to multiple gangs being 20+ deep? Clearly we are not going in the right direction. The city has no gangs left. Its built for legals. All these updates are just crim nerfs. Havent seen a single change that benefited a crim yet.

Clearly this "roundtable" of people deciding on what to implement are majority LEOs and have never spent any time on a criminal character. I wouldnt expect you to understand what every criminal is going through right now.

 

[jason]

Apartments were added to be a solution to completely unaffordable housing for new and even long-time players. Due to labs making them high value as it was a massive property with low cost, the prices skyrocketed and completely negated the point of apartments and any realm of affordability for low-cash players. Further down the chain, the amount of labs increased to a level that was unpredictable, directly causing and encouraging far more people than intended staying inside their labs and not interacting with other players.

Obviously isolation is how a cook works IRL, but IRL 50% of the population isn't cooking for their entire day in an apartment building where the fumes would be seeping into the upstairs neighbors' apartment.

[Stew Walker]

I mean what was accomplished was making a serious operating drug lab cost millions and cooking in larger quantities has actually had the time to cook extended by the necessity to stop and refill your bottles or financial investment increased by having to buy a copious amount of bottles ... This is just the current state, not saying that it wont change in the near future.

[Bala]

I'm apparently happy to let the server die but i've spent the last few months creating custom content for the server, not just for my own faction or gov factions but for the server. 

I'm apparently happy to let the server die but have three in-depth and well-received criminal suggestion threads that have been going for over a year. Even though i've been a cop for the majority of that time. My criminal experience is experience dealing with criminals but do those threads indicate I don't have an idea of what's needed to you?

• https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/topic/55570-cayo-perico-crim-eclipse-update/#comments
  https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/topic/58198-criminal-overhaul-20/#comments
  https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/topic/82451-the-criminal-update-iii-rulesdev/#comments

I'm apparently happy to let the server die but have pushed and pushed the staff team and developers to add stuff for you, me and everybody else. To the point they're fucking sick of listening to me ramble on.

As for the people in the criminal discussion group, you've got the Royals leadership, Shenzhen leadership, me, all the admin+ teams and a few other long term criminals have haven't spent months in crim factions but years. Well respected criminals, whose contribution isn't just about how much more money they can make.

There was an accusation that the devs don't do anything. NBDY is doing nothing BUT criminal stuff right now. 
There was an accusation that the devs don't listen. It was NBDY's idea to create a discussion group with top tier crims on the server and he's putting in things based on their feedback of the issues.

Some of the stuff in the last patch wasn't ideal, but that feedback got put forward and it's being acted upon. 
The stuff what is coming in the next part of the criminal update is going to ramp up the interaction in the server.

I'm sorry for people that have lost money on the apartments, but they were no good for an RP server. 

I'm sorry for some of the factions that are no longer here but reality is, if you stay inside the rules and do the right things, you don't into situations. That said, it's easier to change the mentality and add new stuff for new factions to use than it is to reprogram older factions that have their own specific way about how the server should be.

I have to be really careful about what I say as I'm on a final warning here but if you think I or anyone else involved in this stuff is trying to kill the server or wishes the server harm or anything like that, you know what you can do. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Bala

[Spizor]

I wasn't talking about the money, sure, the update has made a lot of people lose thousands if not millions of money. But, please answer me honestly, do you really think this update has solved the interaction issue? Have your interactions with others gotten better since the update? Because, I can tell you for a fact that from my LEO and civilian side of things, it has not. And from the criminal side, I am seeing even less people now.

So please tell me, what has this really fixed?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Spizor

[Bala]

1 hour ago, Spizor said:

I wasn't talking about the money, sure, the update has made a lot of people lose thousands if not millions of money. But, please answer me honestly, do you really think this update has solved the interaction issue? Have your interactions with others gotten better since the update? Because, I can tell you for a fact that from my LEO and civilian side of things, it has not. And from the criminal side, I am seeing even less people now.

So please tell me, what has this really fixed?

I'll let you know when the update is finished.

[Spizor]

54 minutes ago, Bala said:

I'll let you know when the update is finished.

Point proven.

The update was rushed and should've been delayed until released fully, instead of disabling something with no alternative to it.

If anything, I am not hurt by this update, sure, I still lost a lot of money but it's whatever. As I said, this update is hurting the people who were not "stashed away in interiors 24/7".

I am gonna stop talking on this topic now since I have stated all my opinions.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Spizor

[NotKempi]

Rather then blindly complaining about the update and changes, discouraging the development team how we put that energy into making healthy and properly thought out suggestions? 

You think the bank and ATM reverted should be re-worked because it causes gangs to have issues with maintaining turf? why not make a suggestion or push on the existing suggestions for other ways to gain influence and cash alongside the banks? have random scripted events where crims can get cash, drugs / weapons such as a random chance of a smuggler boat crashing or add in a larger scale robberies that can be conducted in other ways, such as the jewelry store or Humane Labs.
In my opinion healthy to the community as a whole as it opens up a venue for newer criminals to get cash easily and reduces the amount of spammed out bank robberies and whilst it may not have been properly balanced the devs are clearly already working to fix that having lowered the influence requirement. If you still think it's too high why sit and cry about it when you could suggest it gets lowered. 

I'm not speaking on behalf of staff or the dev team in any way, anything I say comes from myself and personal experience but when you only complain about things it's going to discourage development and lead to unhealthy changes being made to who is crying the loudest. Causing toxicity within the community rather then having open connections with the developers. 

The update has been live for 9 days now, if you've noticed consistent issues you can go here https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/forum/110-game-suggestions/ and make a suggestion for values to be changed or alternative option added. Just complaining in a discussion thread is not going to lead to much except distrust and toxicity within the community. 

[jason]

This thread has turned into brigaded toxicity egged on by a community banned member's alt accounts, it will now be locked & archived as everyone has gotten their words out.

Your feedback has been heard and taken into consideration. Thank you to those who participated in a friendly manner.