Copperhorse

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Since the discussion has died down and pretty much everyone has put in their POV it would be great to hear from senior staff on their thoughts of this suggestion.

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Date and time (provide timezone): 10/18/20 3:00 AM GMT -5 Character name: Jason Malgotti Issue/bug you are reporting: "There is no more cash here!" with a big pile of cash in front of us. Expected behavior: Should be able to grab the cash Evidence, notes worth mentioning, steps to replicate: I believe what happend was we started the bank when there was enough PD online, but it switched to not enough after we had already engaged the bank robbery script. https://streamable.com/qsawk3 Vehicle license plate number*:

I don't believe the notion of this all could be avoided if you did X justifies the unrealistic actions of a group in response of doing X. You can still respond to a group with suppression checks for the current state of the city without being unrealistic about it. This thread is in no way asking for us not to be harassed by police everywhere we go. That is an IC problem and the IC solution would be to not be as rampant with our crimes. This thread is to force EVERYONE, instead of just a specific portion of the server, to roleplay that they are in a live city when they are roleplaying. It's like saying a few months ago the response to all of the non-rp robberies is you shouldn't fuel up by yourself, or you shouldn't go to the clothing store by yourself, or you should have your gun out when you're shopping to prevent being robbed. Would doing those actions generally prevent the non-rp robberies? Yes they would. That doesn't mean that is the answer to the problem which is unrealistic roleplay. You should not have to change your roleplay to make it so a group wont commit unrealistic roleplay upon you. However, this problem was never just when the state of conflict in the city was high. Even when most of the criminals in the city were at peace with each other the unrealistic action of shooting firearms (especially automatic ones) on a highway to end a pursuit of a non-violent criminal was still something that happened commonly and will continue to happen if my suggestion is not approved. It has become way too commonplace as an easy way to end a pursuit. This is the thought process of a lot of PD members when they are pursuing a fast vehicle. See fast vehicle breaking law -> Give lights & sirens -> Fast vehicle evades -> Give lethal force demands -> Wait until they are on highway and shoot their tires out with Micro SMG. As I said before, it is simply lazy, unrealistic, and provides a poor roleplay experience for everyone involved. There are a lot of creative and tactical ways to stop an evading vehicle that provide a better roleplay experience for everyone than shooting automatic firearms on a busy highway. The fact that a criminal has DM rights on a car in the city and would shoot is not relevant to this discussion. Generally, a criminal does not take into account civilian lives when it comes to that person determining his risk / reward of a situation. This is why you hear of innocent casualties all the time in the news. However, it is a police officers duty to protect civilian lives, so it should be a MAJOR part of their risk / reward factoring.

You're absolutely wrong to suggest that shooting a .50 cal at a fleeing SUV when there is a helicopter and 10 PD behind him and that person has not committed any violent crimes is justified in any way shape or form. There is no debate to be had on that situation. It was not justified and not realistic. The fact that it was armored provides no extra reasoning to shooting it with a .50 cal minigun. You can still PIT it, you can still follow it with a helicopter, you can still blow its tires out. They did not absolutely have to shoot in the second video. I was not a deadly threat to anyone at any point. You are wrong to suggest that shooting somebody who is not causing great bodily harm or a deadly threat is justified or realistic from a police officer.

Highways are not RPly secluded, the whole idea of everything out of the city being free game to use lethal force is wrong. There are still many locations where there would be civilians outside of the city, a busy interstate being one of them. As I said in a prior post about unrealistic driving, we have deemed that to be not crossing the line where a non-rp punishment should be issued. Should you try to drive in the correct lane under normal circumstances? Of course. But when you are pursuing, have an emergency, or are evading we have decided that a bit of erratic driving doesn't cross the line of non-rp because it doesn't effect anyone elses roleplay substantially. What we have decided is that when criminals make decisions they have to think of the risks / rewards of their decisions to see whether they would be non-rp or not. We have decided that if you do cross that line you will receive a non-rp punishment as you are directly hurting other peoples roleplay. I'm asking for that same standard to be applied to everyone, including law enforcement factions. About your claim of selective realism. Yes, this is a case of selective realism. We have certain actions that people do in this server which are unrealistic but that we've decided don't meet the threshold of receiving a non-rp punishment. Driving erratically being one of the main ones. When do you see police officers stopping at stop signs or traffic lights during normal patrol? Nobody does because it doesn't impact anyone's roleplay. What's been selected by the staff team is to RP as if there are civilians in a live city when you are conducting RP that impacts others roleplaying experience. I did not select that realism threshold, the staff team did. All I'm asking is they apply that same threshold to everyone instead of just criminals.

How are the claims unsubstantiated? I literally placed 2 videos that were less than 3 days old and explained each claim thoroughly how it's unrealistic from a risk / reward process. Please read the thread before you comment your unsubstantiated claims.

I can't say for all circumstances, but in general if you have somebody who committed a violent felony and they are in a secluded location where the risk of stray bullets striking civilians is non-existent it would be okay in terms of a risk / reward standpoint to use lethal force if the suspect chose not to surrender after demands of lethal force being used were issued. If that same person who previously committed a violent felony sticks to populated areas deadly force should not be used unless they are actively firing at officers or civilians from their vehicle, if they are intentionally ramming officers or civilians on foot, or ramming vehicles with the intention to cause great bodily injury or death. As with criminal robberies, the risk / reward should be of what a reasonable officer or criminal would do. It would be on a case by case basis given the totality of the circumstances. But those are some general guidelines that I would think are appropriate.

That's why I'm not calling for any of those changes in this thread. Others are but I'm not. That is a Crim vs PD discussion that has already been turned down by staff. All I'm asking for is the enforcement of a roleplay standard of RPing the streets are occupied with citizens to be applied to everyone. Criminals and PD / SD included. It is not fair to ask one portion of the server to RP as such but not another. Enforcing this standard on everyone will improve everyones roleplay experience and help further distance the server from a GTA:Online style of roleplay that the staff team is trying to get rid of with the more stringent robbery rules.