Why Armor Should Be Sold in Gun Stores Like Weapons

[Quietthecutie]

17 hours ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

PART 1: I respectfully disagree with the idea that "you don’t need body armor to cook drugs or win fights." If that were truly the case, why does every high-tier gang consistently use it to cook drugs and win fights? The reality is that armor reinforces their ability to dominate both in the drug trade and in fights, its like trying to go toe to toe with a raid boss who has twice the amount of regular HP and more often than not has some sort of big gun with them, that smaller gangs simply can’t compete with.

It’s like saying, “You don’t need a calculator to solve complex math problems, you could technically do it by hand.” Sure, you could, but it would be inefficient, impractical, and leave you at a huge disadvantage compared to those with the right tools. Armor might not be essential, but it provides a huge edge that high-tier gangs exploit to maintain their dominance, while smaller gangs are left without a chance to compete anywhere on the same level, especially in the drug economy.

 

PART 2: While I understand and completely agree with the idea of rewarding established gangs for their ties and experience, the current imbalance makes it nearly impossible for smaller gangs to even get a foothold. Gang A doesn’t (and shouldn't) need to match Gang B entirely, but they should at least have the tools to stand a chance and participate in the server’s ecosystem meaningfully.

Making body armor more accessible with 50% capacity wouldn’t eliminate the influence of larger gangs, it would still give them an advantage through their resources and connections with them being able to have 100% capacity armor. It would, however, reduce the overwhelming gap that discourages new groups. Diplomacy and tactics are valid, but they shouldn’t be the only way smaller gangs survive.

Saying Gang A should “get body armor by becoming a loyal ally” to a larger gang just reinforces the monopoly and dependence on a select few groups, limiting competition and creativity. Balanced access to tools like armor encourages more dynamic rp and gives smaller gangs a fair shot at paving their own path and not having to bend to the knee of every large group.

Your assessment that they have an advantage in a fight is correct. Your assessment that this is unfair and is bad for the server is incorrect. 

Bigger gangs will have easier access to weapons and equipment that smaller gangs will find harder to get. because....they are a larger organisation with better connections.

Small gangs can still acquire these items, but they will have to work harder, establish relationships, carry out deals, create their own stockpiles. you can compete, but it will be an uphill battle. this forces you to interact, which is a good thing because as a smaller org, you need to get yourself out there and make connections.

This is all totally by design and indicative of a system working as intended. Its worth remembering that larger orgs all started with nothing. some of these orgs have existed in one form or another for several years. and many of them had to work their way up the ladder BEFORE FM 2.0 which has made sure even small orgs have access to some kind of weapons. they are simply ahead of the curve.

Edited January 6, 2025 by Quietthecutie

[CodySoulDreamer]

3 hours ago, alexalex303 said:

In contrast to a MOBA or other such games where the idea is to provide an equal playing field where skill is the only determining factor, in a roleplay server we do allow for unequal relationships such as the one seen between law enforcement and criminal organizations.

You should not expect to have access to the same equipment as established groups at the beginning of your journey; you should strive to either make yourself a reliable friend to those organizations, or simply steal it from them during roleplay scenarios. The choice is yours, but asking to be handed it is unreasonable.

I understand the value of progression in roleplay, but the gap between 100% armor for established groups and 0% for everyone else is just too extreme. I’m not asking for full access to the same tools as top-tier groups—far from it. I believe unestablished groups and civilians should have some sort of access to 50% armor, while 100% remains exclusive to established groups.

This would maintain the sense of progression while addressing the severe imbalance. It wouldn’t hand smaller groups the same power as larger ones but would at least give them a fighting chance, making rp more dynamic and competitive.

Edited January 6, 2025 by CodySoulDreamer

[CodySoulDreamer]

2 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

Your assessment that they have an advantage in a fight is correct. Your assessment that this is unfair and is bad for the server is incorrect. 

Bigger gangs will have easier access to weapons and equipment that smaller gangs will find harder to get. because....they are a larger organisation with better connections.

Small gangs can still acquire these items, but they will have to work harder, establish relationships, carry out deals, create their own stockpiles. you can compete, but it will be an uphill battle. this forces you to interact, which is a good thing because as a smaller org, you need to get yourself out there and make connections.

This is all totally by design and indicative of a system working as intended. Its worth remembering that larger orgs all started with nothing. some of these orgs have existed in one form or another for several years. and many of them had to work their way up the ladder BEFORE FM 2.0 which has made sure even small orgs have access to some kind of weapons. they are simply ahead of the curve.

Your point about bigger gangs having advantages makes sense to a degree, but the idea that this imbalance is entirely fair or good for the server doesn’t hold up. In the U.S., anyone can walk into a gun store or order body armor online without needing a background check, ID, or special permit. It's a widely accessible tool for personal protection in the real world, not an exclusive privilege for the most connected or powerful.

The current system in place creates a situation where larger gangs have 100% armor while smaller gangs or civilians are left with none. This isn’t just an uphill battle, it’s a one-sided war. Yes, larger organizations worked to get where they are, but giving them total dominance discourages smaller groups from even trying to climb the ladder and instead just join the larger group.

A more balanced approach, like allowing smaller orgs or civilians access to limited protection (50% armor), and more connected gangs access to military grade armor (100% armor), would still reward the progression of larger groups while giving newer ones a fairer chance to compete. Balance doesn’t ruin roleplay; it makes it richer and more engaging for everyone.

Edited January 6, 2025 by CodySoulDreamer

[CodySoulDreamer]

4 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

RPly this doesn't make any sense...

Whilst many civilians will carry a gun for personal protection, a gun is a non intrusive item which can be simply stored in a holster clipped onto your belt. Kevlar vests are HEAVY, cumbersome and uncomfortable to the point where people wouldnt wear them day in day out on the off chance they get shot at.

Your average civilian has no reason to wear Kevlar, unless for some reason they are at risk, in which case the solution isnt to put on body armour, its to take the matter to the authorities.

Now if crims feel that purchasing body armour should be open at a lower faction tier, thats a different conversation.

(Bare with me as I touch on some real life examples here.) I live in the United States and regularly drive through some tough neighborhoods on my way to work. For personal safety, I carry a firearm and wear IAAA body armor daily. This isn’t because I expect trouble but because I want to be prepared in case my car breaks down at night or, in the unfortunate event, I find myself in a dangerous situation like an active shooter or a mass stabbing. Modern light body armor is nothing like the bulky, heavy gear meant for military use, it’s designed to be lightweight, discreet, and practical. My vest doesn’t protrude, and it’s comfortable enough to wear under a shirt or hoodie for hours on end.

The argument about “taking matters to the authorities” is valid to a point, but there are situations where authorities may not arrive in time—whether it’s a mass shooting, kidnapping, or a robbery. In those moments, having the tools to better protect yourself and your loved ones could make all the difference.

Regardless of all these reasons, civilians in the U.S. can legally purchase body armor without any ID/background check/permit (even military grade armor). And many civilians do, especially in higher-risk/crime areas, for personal protection.

So RPly this does make sense, allowing access to lighter armor (50% capacity) for civilians or smaller groups mirrors real-life  and provides a balance in situations where they might otherwise be entirely vulnerable. This wouldn’t mean handing out 100% capacity armor to everyone, but rather offering a practical level of protection for self-defense while still maintaining an edge for more established groups.

Edited January 6, 2025 by CodySoulDreamer

[Demonmit1]

16 minutes ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

but rather offering a practical level of protection for self-defense while still maintaining an edge for more established groups.

at the end of the day, its still a video game, and its not all about whats realistic. Body armor for civilians is something that really shouldnt be added. the ONLY way i can see Civ's having access to AP vests is through the guard card system.

[Requiem]

The suggestion seems to infer that the only option to progress and get to those higher faction tiers is to fight against the larger gangs and compete with them. That doesn't need to be the case at all. You have options as a smaller/newer faction to lay low and find other RP avenues to progress your faction, make money needed and do what's necessary to progress to higher tiers to have access to import your own weapons and armor. Brute forcing it and "finding the biggest guy around" and trying to show force as a smaller group isn't going to do anything for you but make life harder. 

To address the suggestion itself, there would be other problems introduced if body armor was made available to civilians. Law enforcement currently have to regulate all the sales of firearms through gun stores through their own documentation of weapon's licenses and server scripts for it, along with dealing with firearms that go missing or are lost/stolen. Someone that shows a clear pattern of "losing" their firearms is likely to lose their gun license.

If body armor were introduced, you act as though criminals could just go and buy as much of it as they like and use it for criminal activity, but the fact you would be obtaining it through "legal avenues" means that you would face the scrutiny of the law and probably either have police investigating you and your group for purchasing as much body armor as you do and/or simply get cut off from purchasing the armor since you are clearly abusing it or using it for illegal activities. You may ask, "why does law enforcement need to track the purchase of body armor from gun stores?" Same reason law enforcement track guns currently - the purchase of these items can be abused. 

[Sibyrd]

Level 4 plates are like 1/10th the price of most quality guns irl, im not quite sure why armour is so expensive nor am i sure why its an import - why should body armour be illegal?? Being able to legally carry something that causes damage but not legally being able to wear something that prevents damage is wild in my opinion.

[CodySoulDreamer]

6 hours ago, Requiem said:

The suggestion seems to infer that the only option to progress and get to those higher faction tiers is to fight against the larger gangs and compete with them. That doesn't need to be the case at all. You have options as a smaller/newer faction to lay low and find other RP avenues to progress your faction, make money needed and do what's necessary to progress to higher tiers to have access to import your own weapons and armor. Brute forcing it and "finding the biggest guy around" and trying to show force as a smaller group isn't going to do anything for you but make life harder. 

To address the suggestion itself, there would be other problems introduced if body armor was made available to civilians. Law enforcement currently have to regulate all the sales of firearms through gun stores through their own documentation of weapon's licenses and server scripts for it, along with dealing with firearms that go missing or are lost/stolen. Someone that shows a clear pattern of "losing" their firearms is likely to lose their gun license.

I understand your perspective, but this suggestion isn’t about allowing smaller factions to provoke bigger ones—it’s about giving them a fighting chance in the drug economy when larger groups decide to claim their resources. Right now, top-tier gangs can show up with twice the health advantage, easily robbing or dominating smaller groups or civilians. That overwhelming edge lets them keep building momentum and stay in control of the economy, discouraging anyone outside a large gang from even participating in the drug economy.

As for making armor available through legal means, I see the argument for regulations and consequences—similar to firearms—but in real life, there typically isn’t any tracking on body armor purchases. It’s puzzling that you can legally own something designed to harm others, but in the server are restricted from owning something to protect yourself from said harm. Providing a reasonable level of armor doesn’t mean handing out full military grade gear to everyone; it’s about making sure the server remains competitive and fun for all players, rather than reinforcing the dominance of those who are already at the top.

[alexalex303]

17 hours ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

I understand your perspective, but this suggestion isn’t about allowing smaller factions to provoke bigger ones—it’s about giving them a fighting chance in the drug economy when larger groups decide to claim their resources. Right now, top-tier gangs can show up with twice the health advantage, easily robbing or dominating smaller groups or civilians. That overwhelming edge lets them keep building momentum and stay in control of the economy, discouraging anyone outside a large gang from even participating in the drug economy.

As for making armor available through legal means, I see the argument for regulations and consequences—similar to firearms—but in real life, there typically isn’t any tracking on body armor purchases. It’s puzzling that you can legally own something designed to harm others, but in the server are restricted from owning something to protect yourself from said harm. Providing a reasonable level of armor doesn’t mean handing out full military grade gear to everyone; it’s about making sure the server remains competitive and fun for all players, rather than reinforcing the dominance of those who are already at the top.

That might be you and your group's personal experience, but this is not the status quo; if anything, at this current time we have the most amount of gangs we've ever had in the server. It's never been easier to establish connections, make friends and succeed. You even get F4 menu after a month, whereas before it took you half a year.

Empire is an example of a faction that, as far as I'm aware, was made up entirely of relatively random people (no offense), but they're now an established group that has its own club, headquarter(s), strengths and relationships. They weren't given anything, and for a while it was hard, but they made it and they're doing very well. 

There's plenty more examples of groups that came up through the same system, with very little friends to lean on, and made it. You can do it too. You'll find that you'll do a lot better if you try to adapt to your environment more rather than trying to change the environment to fit you.

Edited January 7, 2025 by alexalex303

[Jordan]

17 hours ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

I understand your perspective, but this suggestion isn’t about allowing smaller factions to provoke bigger ones—it’s about giving them a fighting chance in the drug economy when larger groups decide to claim their resources. Right now, top-tier gangs can show up with twice the health advantage, easily robbing or dominating smaller groups or civilians. That overwhelming edge lets them keep building momentum and stay in control of the economy, discouraging anyone outside a large gang from even participating in the drug economy.

As for making armor available through legal means, I see the argument for regulations and consequences—similar to firearms—but in real life, there typically isn’t any tracking on body armor purchases. It’s puzzling that you can legally own something designed to harm others, but in the server are restricted from owning something to protect yourself from said harm. Providing a reasonable level of armor doesn’t mean handing out full military grade gear to everyone; it’s about making sure the server remains competitive and fun for all players, rather than reinforcing the dominance of those who are already at the top.

In my own personal opinion this idea comes a lot from a PVP perspective. Now I will say that may not be what you're saying, but personally I do not believe Body Armor should be readily available in any capacity. Allowing it to be purchased legally is a little silly for the reasons already said in this discussion before. But again: With the way FM 2.0 works it encourages more roleplay interaction with other gangs in the city. Your group can just as easily find a group that sells Body Armor and purchase it from them its not very difficult to find. I understand your reason for "Realistically" wanting armor purchasable but we have to think about the balancing of the server, if you give anyone access to armor suddenly giving them as a tier reward for gangs that have worked for it means much much less.

[CodySoulDreamer]

8 hours ago, Jordan said:

In my own personal opinion this idea comes a lot from a PVP perspective. Now I will say that may not be what you're saying, but personally I do not believe Body Armor should be readily available in any capacity. Allowing it to be purchased legally is a little silly for the reasons already said in this discussion before.

In reality, gangs grow for influence, territory, and revenue—not just for gear. It’s reasonable for bigger gangs to progress and get better weapons, and maybe even newly developed military-grade armor, giving them a slight HP advantage. That fits a gangs roleplay progression. Even if the armor aspect is somewhat unrealistic—since, in real life, military grade armor is fairly cheap compared to weapons and isn’t locked behind some mystical tier and is accessible to anyone with the means to obtain it.

However, when large gangs effectively have double the health on top of heavy weapons, it actually pushes them to PvP more than if they didn’t have it. Let’s think about this logically, we’d probably all pick a lot more fights too if we knew we had twice the HP of 99% of the players we engage with—especially if they had something we wanted. Several people I’ve talked to also feel that unlimited armor access has “poisoned” some bigger gangs goals, turning them into new PvP juggernauts everyone flocks to for the extra HP and bigger guns. If smaller groups had even half of big gangs  armor, it would make large gangs think twice before engaging in pvp with others, creating a more balanced rp environment for everyone.

[Jordan]

20 minutes ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

In reality, gangs grow for influence, territory, and revenue—not just for gear. It’s reasonable for bigger gangs to progress and get better weapons, and maybe even newly developed military-grade armor, giving them a slight HP advantage. That fits a gangs roleplay progression. Even if the armor aspect is somewhat unrealistic—since, in real life, military grade armor is fairly cheap compared to weapons and isn’t locked behind some mystical tier and is accessible to anyone with the means to obtain it.

However, when large gangs effectively have double the health on top of heavy weapons, it actually pushes them to PvP more than if they didn’t have it. Let’s think about this logically, we’d probably all pick a lot more fights too if we knew we had twice the HP of 99% of the players we engage with—especially if they had something we wanted. Several people I’ve talked to also feel that unlimited armor access has “poisoned” some bigger gangs goals, turning them into new PvP juggernauts everyone flocks to for the extra HP and bigger guns. If smaller groups had even half of big gangs  armor, it would make large gangs think twice before engaging in pvp with others, creating a more balanced rp environment for everyone.

Even if the player base of the server thought how you're saying they think, a lot of them would be removed fairly quickly as those players are very easy to separate from the players who want to RP. I'd say the majority of the playerbase that has Armor will only use it when they know theyre pulling up to a fight or lab and need to use it. I simply do not think we can reach common ground here, sure its not "Realistic" because its not really "Hidden behind some mystical tier" but we have to remember this is a Video Game Server, just as its not realistic to have tiers for gangs, its not realistic for cops to be able to pull insane amounts of weapons out of the trunk of their car, or for a criminal to die and wake up and go to a lab 30 minutes later, I feel we should move towards realism but without tarnishing gameplay.

[Demonmit1]

9 hours ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

If smaller groups had even half of big gangs  armor, it would make large gangs think twice before engaging in pvp with others, creating a more balanced rp environment for everyone.

nothings stopping you from finding out who will sell big guns and armor, and then buying them. 

[Sibyrd]

1 hour ago, Demonmit1 said:

nothings stopping you from finding out who will sell big guns and armor, and then buying them. 

and nothings stopping those people from selling a realistically legal item for 2x the price it costs them

[Jordan]

5 hours ago, Sibyrd said:

and nothings stopping those people from selling a realistically legal item for 2x the price it costs them

I feel like there's an unnecessary focus on realism over gameplay in this discussion. Balance and RP take priority over realism (atleast in my opinion)

[Demonmit1]

6 hours ago, Sibyrd said:

and nothings stopping those people from selling a realistically legal item for 2x the price it costs them

and? high demand with low availability of armor makes it easy to charge more and more for the item, as long as people are still willing to pay that price, thats just how economies work. Now, most gangs that do have access to armors are willing to reduce the taxes charged on imports if you work for them, like regularly offering them drugs, packed cash, or car parts. again, it all comes back to interacting with other players, which is the point of a roleplay server. getting your armor from an NPC legal gun store actively discourages player to player interaction, and arguing for less player to player interaction makes no sense.

Edited January 8, 2025 by Demonmit1

[CodySoulDreamer]

3 hours ago, Jordan said:

I feel like there's an unnecessary focus on realism over gameplay in this discussion. Balance and RP take priority over realism (atleast in my opinion)

The great thing about this armor take is it hits all three nails on the head. It creates a balance by mitigating large gangs monopoly over the drug trade while still preserving their inherent advantage for rp (still allowing them 100% armor over others 50%). Smaller gangs, in turn, are RPly incentivized to expand and participate in the drug economy, now with a better capacity to protect themselves and their resources. From a realism standpoint, it also reflects an item that, in reality, is readily available to anyone.

[Jordan]

1 hour ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

The great thing about this armor take is it hits all three nails on the head. It creates a balance by mitigating large gangs monopoly over the drug trade while still preserving their inherent advantage for rp (still allowing them 100% armor over others 50%). Smaller gangs, in turn, are RPly incentivized to expand and participate in the drug economy, now with a better capacity to protect themselves and their resources. From a realism standpoint, it also reflects an item that, in reality, is readily available to anyone.

Gangs *SHOULD* have the "monopoly" over other gangs, thats what creates more RP, this is why the tier system gives different gangs different rewards at different tiers, it encourages other gangs to work with one another to interact without always resulting in PVP, thats my point.

[Quietthecutie]

Ye im kinda like over the whole "woe is me cant make it in this crazy world cus all the fat cats have MONOPOLIES" speel tbh...

My crim is not part of any major org and gets by just fine because i interract with other orgs, have good friends, allies, do my best to stay on good terms and develop relationships, yknow, roleplay.

If you wanna lone wolf it and declare war on the status quo ICly, have at it. but on forums i just dont feel like you have the skin in the game.

[CodySoulDreamer]

17 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

My crim is not part of any major org and gets by just fine because i interract with other orgs, have good friends, allies, do my best to stay on good terms and develop relationships, yknow, roleplay.

If you wanna lone wolf it and declare war on the status quo ICly, have at it. but on forums i just dont feel like you have the skin in the game.

That’s cool if you enjoy being everyone’s errand boy and living off scraps, but not everyone’s idea of roleplay is kissing ass just to survive. Some of us actually want the chance to stand up for ourselves without being steamrolled by gangs with 2x the health.

Also, having basic tools like armor doesn’t remove the need for roleplay—it levels the playing field so people can create their own stories without having to bend over for bigger gangs.

[Quietthecutie]

5 minutes ago, CodySoulDreamer said:

That’s cool if you enjoy being everyone’s errand boy and living off scraps, but not everyone’s idea of roleplay is kissing ass just to survive. Some of us actually want the chance to stand up for ourselves without being steamrolled by gangs with 2x the health.

Also, having basic tools like armor doesn’t remove the need for roleplay—it levels the playing field so people can create their own stories without having to bend over for bigger gangs.

The playing field is deliberately not level. thats by design.

Again, if you wanna do lone wolf shit, have at it. but no one is obligated to help you then if youre not willing to be a little more thoughtful with your approach. and the server certainly isnt obligated to change simply because you see purchasing from and establishing relations with larger orgs as "kissing ass.." Most people would see that as just business but hey you do you.

[Timmy2x]

On 1/3/2025 at 2:53 PM, CodySoulDreamer said:

The current system, where armor is unavailable for most players, gives larger gangs an overwhelming monopoly over the server's economy, especially in the drug trade. These gangs dominate because they can hold and/or push cook spots and bully smaller gangs or independent players. With their armor (and heavy weaponry), they can wipe any competition knowing that those smaller groups without armor can't challenge them in a fight.

This imbalance forces smaller gangs to either give up on the best way to make money(drugs) or merge with larger groups, stripping the server of competition and discouraging new gangs from even trying to make their mark, especially in the drug economy. Smaller groups can’t hope to compete when every encounter feels like a losing battle before it even begins.

Allowing armor to be sold in gun stores, with the requirement of a valid weapons license, and even a limit of like one armor every 3 days, would help give smaller gangs a fighting chance. It would shift the focus of conflicts from brute force to skill and strategy, empowering smaller gangs to hold their ground and challenge established groups. Proper pricing could ensure armor remains valuable but accessible, while at the same time breaking up the monopoly that larger gangs hold over critical resources.

making armor available in gun stores would create a more balanced and competitive environment. It would encourage new and smaller gangs to participate actively, while still feeling like they have a fighting chance to rival larger groups. Everyone deserves a fair shot at success, and I personally think access to armor is a crucial step in ensuring that.

-1 What you're suggesting rips away from all the hard work that other gangs have done to have the ability to import not only heavy weaponry but AP. If a small gang is searching for these such items they should interact with higher gangs within the server and do a service for a service. Such as you bringing them car parts, drugs, or packed cash and in turn you get a drop in exchange. Every gang in this server had to start from somewhere and have gotten where they are based on their hard work and grind. A gang can not "Make their mark" if they aren't willing to come to terms (neutrality) with other gangs within the server. "Allowing armor to be sold in gun stores, with the requirement of a valid weapons license." My first question is why would an illegal item be for sale in a legal store? Also what criminal has a valid weapons license? It would make no sense allowing any "Legal" to go buy AP at a gun store. Calling armor a crucial step to getting a fair shot is a stretch. I've been a part of plenty of gun fights where AP doesn't even play a factor in who comes out the winner. Is it a game changer in certain ways? Yes. Should it be readily accessible to new gangs and or Legals as you suggested? No.

[Kon]

On 1/3/2025 at 7:53 PM, CodySoulDreamer said:

The current system, where armor is unavailable for most players, gives larger gangs an overwhelming monopoly over the server's economy, especially in the drug trade. These gangs dominate because they can hold and/or push cook spots and bully smaller gangs or independent players. With their armor (and heavy weaponry), they can wipe any competition knowing that those smaller groups without armor can't challenge them in a fight.

This imbalance forces smaller gangs to either give up on the best way to make money(drugs) or merge with larger groups, stripping the server of competition and discouraging new gangs from even trying to make their mark, especially in the drug economy. Smaller groups can’t hope to compete when every encounter feels like a losing battle before it even begins.

And where do you think these 'smaller gangs' are going to get 20k every day for their armor?, that they are certainly going to lose daily. Armor and even heavy weapons is not going to turn these newer/smaller gangs into powerhouses, I've wiped PD enough times to know this. I also don't even use AP anymore and I'm in one of the biggest factions on the server and fight often. Armor is not gonna solve these problems you think you're having. 

Make some friends, there are plenty of gangs that will be good with you without 'bending over' for them, learn at what time of the day you can and can't cook.

[Salvador Rivera]

On 1/13/2025 at 3:09 PM, Kon said:

And where do you think these 'smaller gangs' are going to get 20k every day for their armor?,

Yes, they will get 20k. You can't even imagine how easy it is.

[Sibyrd]

6 hours ago, Salvador Rivera said:

Yes, they will get 20k. You can't even imagine how easy it is.

Spoken with true ignorance I see