Remove the no illegal activities part of Life Invader server rules.

[Demonmit1]

15. Lifeinvader
Lifeinvader is an In-Character platform available to the players of Eclipse Roleplay. It is important to note that all server rules apply on the platform as they do whilst playing on the actual server.

• No illegal activities can be conducted in private groups on Lifeinvader such as requesting backup and/or selling/buying weapons/drugs.
• Photos uploaded on Lifeinvader must have been taken with /record, or with /me’s. This does not apply to photos taken with hidden equipment that is in accordance with server rules.
• Players may not use real-world images depicted as their character or post in-game images not possible to be taken from Eclipse RP. A few examples of improper photos can be seen in the bullet points below

I suggest that this underlined part of rule 15 should be removed. I understand that there are reasons why this rule exists, but the negatives that come from removing this rule do not outweigh the positives in my opinion, so lets get into that.

• Why does this rule exist?
  • Life invader is an entirely "In-Character" system, but is entirely supported from outside the game, in a browser on your computer. This opens up the risk of non-RP and Powergaming rulebreaks, as there is no scripted restriction to use the site forcing you to be in game, with your phone on, and able to access your phone to "RPly" use the site.

 

• Why should the rule be removed?
  1. The Rule being an OOC server punishment for using an IC system to conduct IC things makes no sense. The rule already says that all other server rules apply on the platform, so, "NonRP / Powergaming" covers abusing the system if you scriptly should not have access to life invader, should be punishable. (IE, current server messages telling people the cant use /ldo to share info if someone's phone is off)
      
  2. Life invader is an entirely "In-Character" system, and should be treated as such, allowing users to use it as their character would want to, how they want to, and accept any IC consequences that may come of that.
      
  3. Life Invader is an official IC faction, and should have the capacity to moderate content on its site. with the new legal faction management systems, lifeinvader as a faction can have more duties to perform now and be more involved in running and moderating their site. consider the roleplay opportunities. will Lifeinvader leadership crack down hard on criminal activity and moderation? or will they become an IC Elon Musk with Twitter/X, doing whatever they please?
      
  4. Law enforcement has many avenues to acquire search warrants and plant snitches within groups to acquire information that will lead to arrests. using a public social media site ICly is risky for a criminal organization to do, but if they're willing to take the risk, they should be allowed to benefit from the ease of communication that a social media platform gives.
      
  5. The server's personal phone system is dogshit, and no one likes it. life invader becoming a new hub for IC communication would solve a lot of current problems with the outdated phone script.
      
  6. the recent forums change, removing the IC section of the forums for buying/selling seems to be to push more interaction to life invader. you want actual widespread use of lifeinvader? make it not a server rule break for criminals to use it. its odd that such a large majority of the server population is excluded from using a large feature the server offers.

 

 

Thoughts? concerns? other ideas?

Edited November 11, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Ash]

1 & 2: this rule only covers private groups because you can just make it so you and 4 buddies can see it. You can still use LI for illegal things, seen some people do smart things with it actually in the past. There’s no real IC follow-through for something a handful of people could only see, irl obviously there’d be actual systems in place for illegal activity happening, but that’s way beyond scope of a video game social media with the only real way of finding out would be a member of the group snitching.

3: lifeinvader faction is more just an IC cover for the event team and not really anything to do with the website. Not saying the idea in this point is bad, but that’s what lifeinvader faction is.

4: see first point, but it’s not that there’s risk, it’s that there’s basically no risk involved and it’d be very powerful.

5: I agree, to get away with what you describe would need some work done still.

6: removing IC forum changes nothing for illegals, as they couldn’t do anything they couldn’t already do there. They can attempt to sell illegal things on lifeinvader with risk attached 

 

The only way I could see this happening is if there was dedicated people being ic admins of the site that have access to browse these private groups, and idk how viable that is, both in terms of manpower and technically.

[Quietthecutie]

IRL, social media platforms, particularly in the US, come under heavy scrutiny and companies have to almost always give agencies like the CIA/FBI/NSA/Homeland backdoor access if a judge orders it. the reason being that clearly crims use these platforms thus if a judge deems enough evidence to be present to warrant a "tap" then yea, that should be permitted.

Would that Lifeinvader was implemented with this kind of care in mind. instead in current state lifeinvader is basically an ooc website with IC content. closer to certain parts of the forums.

the reason there is this hanger rule that you cant use private groups to conduct crim activities is that detectives/investigators currently have no tool and no way to track/trace/document that kind of activity is because currently there is no mechanic for anyone outside of the people you give perms to, to access those channels. it would be categorically unfair and basically a metagaming backchannel.

TL;DR: GG no counterplay.

Now if detectives/investigators suddenly had the ability to track and trace these channels. that changes things, otherwise what youre asking for is a channel of communication, available in game, without direct contact, which is virtually untraceable by outside parties, which is in practice just a metagame IC.

For context, not even government radio channels would have the level of security you are asking for, as these are open to compromise with the latest technology updates crims have access to.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Ash]

18 minutes ago, Quietthecutie said:

categorically unfair and basically a metagaming backchannel.

This 

[Demonmit1]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:20 AM, Quietthecutie said:

For context, not even government radio channels would have the level of security you are asking for, as these are open to compromise with the latest technology updates crims have access to.

TAC / JTAC exists as an impenetrable real time voice communication any primary GOV faction can use when they deem necessary. Crims currently have no tool and no way to track/trace/document that kind of activity because currently there is no mechanic for anyone outside of the people given perms to, to access those channels. Whats the counterplay to that?

Edited November 14, 2024 by Demonmit1

[Quietthecutie]

57 minutes ago, Demonmit1 said:

TAC / JTAC exists as an impenetrable real time voice communication any primary GOV faction can use when they deem necessary. Crims currently have no tool and no way to track/trace/document that kind of activity because currently there is no mechanic for anyone outside of the people given perms to, to access those channels. Whats the counterplay to that?

The counterplay is you are incorrect.

TAC/JTAC channels follow the exact same rules as standard radio communications when it comes jammers and signals being blocked.

The moment anyone notices that they have entered a jammed area (by looking at the radio notification on the right.) They must leave the TAC and cannot return until they have cleared the jammer either by finding and disabling it or by leaving its effective range.

This is actively and strictly enforced by both faction command and staff.

[Chubbyy]

On 11/15/2024 at 12:58 AM, Quietthecutie said:

 

TAC/JTAC channels follow the exact same rules as standard radio communications when it comes jammers and signals being blocked.

 

what about zero days? where you can comp the LEO freq to hear call outs which you wont hear if they are in TAC/JTAC.

 

[Quietthecutie]

4 hours ago, ItsChubby said:

what about zero days? where you can comp the LEO freq to hear call outs which you wont hear if they are in TAC/JTAC.

 

No Disrespect but pulling out such an edgecase, low frequency event out and trying to use it as a trump card to counteract all the other points i have made just smacks of desperation.

Its worth noting the primary reason TAC channels exist is not because they are secure, or offer an unfair advantage... but because during a single pursuit there are so many callouts that it floods the radio and people not involved in that situation cant communicate anything else over radio. hence, we "take it to TAC" which means that that pursuit can be commed somewhere separate, clearing the radio freq so the rest of the department can continue functioning.

but hey man if you can show me a program that links TS and Rage together to allow better integration and more gameplay opportunities i am 100% here for it. Think of the jammer situation, LEOs have to manually leave and rejoin TACs when that happens. we try our best to do it ASAP but its still manual imput and its a pain in the ass. if there was a script that could link TS with Rage so interactivity happened automatically that would be so convenient, but so far as i can tell, such a programme is outside of our development remit so we do the best we can. 

Edited November 20, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Chubbyy]

4 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

No Disrespect but pulling out such an edgecase, low frequency event out and trying to use it as a trump card to counteract all the other points i have made just smacks of desperation.

Its worth noting the primary reason TAC channels exist is not because they are secure, or offer an unfair advantage... but because during a single pursuit there are so many callouts that it floods the radio and people not involved in that situation cant communicate anything else over radio. hence, we "take it to TAC" which means that that pursuit can be commed somewhere separate, clearing the radio freq so the rest of the department can continue functioning.

but hey man if you can show me a program that links TS and Rage together to allow better integration and more gameplay opportunities i am 100% here for it. Think of the jammer situation, LEOs have to manually leave and rejoin TACs when that happens. we try our best to do it ASAP but its still manual imput and its a pain in the ass. if there was a script that could link TS with Rage so interactivity happened automatically that would be so convenient, but so far as i can tell, such a programme is outside of our development remit so we do the best we can. 

 wasn't trying to be rude or anything just was wondering as a general question. My group along with others use zerodays a lot. why cant PD/SD just have diff IC freqs to switch to as well that they bind? that is also protected like Freq "911" that they easily go to  by doing "SHIFT+3".

getting back on topic, would be cool tho to see Lifeinvader work on the IC phones via the app so if a cop takes your phone they can dig into your app like they can with text messages and see what groups you are in and what you are talking about 

Edited November 20, 2024 by ItsChubby

[Quietthecutie]

5 hours ago, ItsChubby said:

 wasn't trying to be rude or anything just was wondering as a general question. My group along with others use zerodays a lot. why cant PD/SD just have diff IC freqs to switch to as well that they bind? that is also protected like Freq "911" that they easily go to  by doing "SHIFT+3".

getting back on topic, would be cool tho to see Lifeinvader work on the IC phones via the app so if a cop takes your phone they can dig into your app like they can with text messages and see what groups you are in and what you are talking about 

The reason we dont use multiple radio freqs and hop between them is a practical one. LEOs have to be on the main radio freq for the duration of their shift unless they announce they are going "radio silent" for reasons like meetings. this is important during large scenes where supervisors will use the radio freq to coodinate multiple TACs. whilst the TACs are used for individual situations and second to second comms are given there, diverting resources to different situations or asking for backup is given over general radio. TACs are also vital for inter departmental communication between SD/PD/MD/GSB/GOV/DOC/anyoneelsewhomightbeinvolvedinascene. theres simply too many departments to get this all on radio and im not gonna even get started on flooding someones personal radio binds for work.

For example a large hostage bank robbery where the crims are being given the chance to drive off in exchange for the safety of the hostage can have as many as 5 TACs with general comms to organise them being given over radio. another example would be to divert an air unit from one situation to another depending on hazard level or urgency. Its also worth noting that TAC channels are one and done, the moment the situation is concluded you clear the TAC, leaving the channel and resuming regular comms through radio. no long term information is stored on them and no one stays in them any longer than absolutely necessary.

Getting back on topic also. yeah if lifeinvader was an IC only site, where cops had the capability to track and trace with the proper reasoning, I wouldnt mind the suggestion, after all i think 90% of the use would be to just get new binds out. Unfortunately in its current state it wouldnt be fit for that purpose.

Edited November 20, 2024 by Quietthecutie

[Eliza]

The way I see it, you post about illegal things on social media, you get charged accordingly if LEO find out. I’ve personally witnessed PD get a warrant for somebody who made a fake PD Lifeinvader page to investigate them ICly, so the resources already exist.

[Ash]

10 minutes ago, DontSniffSugar said:

The way I see it, you post about illegal things on social media, you get charged accordingly if LEO find out. I’ve personally witnessed PD get a warrant for somebody who made a fake PD Lifeinvader page to investigate them ICly, so the resources already exist.

They exist, when the posts are public and there's an initial starting point to go from. The rule specifies private groups, which there'd be no starting point and no way to follow through with any of what you said. Unlike IRL that have ways of tracking illegal things happening in private groups, that wouldn't be possible here without dedicating people to actually administrate the website beyond basic content deletion for ooc reasons.

[Demonmit1]

On 11/11/2024 at 2:32 AM, Ash said:

There’s no real IC follow-through for something a handful of people could only see,

 

47 minutes ago, Ash said:

The rule specifies private groups, which there'd be no starting point and no way to follow through with any of what you said.

the same can be said for phone text logs, call logs, bank records, etc. all of those require staff support to acquire once a IC warrant is issued. why would this not be the same? if law enforcement need info, they can request a warrant from a judge and be given logs. they do that already with anonymous posts.

[Diligo]

literally @Demonmit1 has it thought out.
If you issue a warrant against a person, LEO`s can ask staff to check their phone logs, Lifeinvader private group chats and so on.

Also admins can provide evidence through discord the same way I provide my dashcam footage to a LEO through discord when he thought I was speeding but actually he was bugging fr.
 

[tigerpet15]

On 11/11/2024 at 7:14 AM, Demonmit1 said:

15. Lifeinvader
Lifeinvader is an In-Character platform available to the players of Eclipse Roleplay. It is important to note that all server rules apply on the platform as they do whilst playing on the actual server.

• No illegal activities can be conducted in private groups on Lifeinvader such as requesting backup and/or selling/buying weapons/drugs.
• Photos uploaded on Lifeinvader must have been taken with /record, or with /me’s. This does not apply to photos taken with hidden equipment that is in accordance with server rules.
• Players may not use real-world images depicted as their character or post in-game images not possible to be taken from Eclipse RP. A few examples of improper photos can be seen in the bullet points below

I suggest that this underlined part of rule 15 should be removed. I understand that there are reasons why this rule exists, but the negatives that come from removing this rule do not outweigh the positives in my opinion, so lets get into that.

• Why does this rule exist?
  • Life invader is an entirely "In-Character" system, but is entirely supported from outside the game, in a browser on your computer. This opens up the risk of non-RP and Powergaming rulebreaks, as there is no scripted restriction to use the site forcing you to be in game, with your phone on, and able to access your phone to "RPly" use the site.

 

• Why should the rule be removed?
  1. The Rule being an OOC server punishment for using an IC system to conduct IC things makes no sense. The rule already says that all other server rules apply on the platform, so, "NonRP / Powergaming" covers abusing the system if you scriptly should not have access to life invader, should be punishable. (IE, current server messages telling people the cant use /ldo to share info if someone's phone is off)
      
  2. Life invader is an entirely "In-Character" system, and should be treated as such, allowing users to use it as their character would want to, how they want to, and accept any IC consequences that may come of that.
      
  3. Life Invader is an official IC faction, and should have the capacity to moderate content on its site. with the new legal faction management systems, lifeinvader as a faction can have more duties to perform now and be more involved in running and moderating their site. consider the roleplay opportunities. will Lifeinvader leadership crack down hard on criminal activity and moderation? or will they become an IC Elon Musk with Twitter/X, doing whatever they please?
      
  4. Law enforcement has many avenues to acquire search warrants and plant snitches within groups to acquire information that will lead to arrests. using a public social media site ICly is risky for a criminal organization to do, but if they're willing to take the risk, they should be allowed to benefit from the ease of communication that a social media platform gives.
      
  5. The server's personal phone system is dogshit, and no one likes it. life invader becoming a new hub for IC communication would solve a lot of current problems with the outdated phone script.
      
  6. the recent forums change, removing the IC section of the forums for buying/selling seems to be to push more interaction to life invader. you want actual widespread use of lifeinvader? make it not a server rule break for criminals to use it. its odd that such a large majority of the server population is excluded from using a large feature the server offers.

 

 

Thoughts? concerns? other ideas?

As far as i agree w the suggestion. I believe there is too much pg risk involved. I think the rework of the phone with added group chats would solve the issue we as criminals are facing. 

[tigerpet15]

On 11/14/2024 at 2:58 PM, Quietthecutie said:

The counterplay is you are incorrect.

TAC/JTAC channels follow the exact same rules as standard radio communications when it comes jammers and signals being blocked.

The moment anyone notices that they have entered a jammed area (by looking at the radio notification on the right.) They must leave the TAC and cannot return until they have cleared the jammer either by finding and disabling it or by leaving its effective range.

This is actively and strictly enforced by both faction command and staff.

It d be cool to be able to listen to them. With th added items 

[tigerpet15]

21 hours ago, Quietthecutie said:

The reason we dont use multiple radio freqs and hop between them is a practical one. LEOs have to be on the main radio freq for the duration of their shift unless they announce they are going "radio silent" for reasons like meetings. this is important during large scenes where supervisors will use the radio freq to coodinate multiple TACs. whilst the TACs are used for individual situations and second to second comms are given there, diverting resources to different situations or asking for backup is given over general radio. TACs are also vital for inter departmental communication between SD/PD/MD/GSB/GOV/DOC/anyoneelsewhomightbeinvolvedinascene. theres simply too many departments to get this all on radio and im not gonna even get started on flooding someones personal radio binds for work.

For example a large hostage bank robbery where the crims are being given the chance to drive off in exchange for the safety of the hostage can have as many as 5 TACs with general comms to organise them being given over radio. another example would be to divert an air unit from one situation to another depending on hazard level or urgency. Its also worth noting that TAC channels are one and done, the moment the situation is concluded you clear the TAC, leaving the channel and resuming regular comms through radio. no long term information is stored on them and no one stays in them any longer than absolutely necessary.

Getting back on topic also. yeah if lifeinvader was an IC only site, where cops had the capability to track and trace with the proper reasoning, I wouldnt mind the suggestion, after all i think 90% of the use would be to just get new binds out. Unfortunately in its current state it wouldnt be fit for that purpose.

I understand it. Though I believe in game support for them would be useful for everyone crims and Leo’s