The Last Drug Table Patch

[Celestial]

Greetings, Eclipse Community!

I’ve created this thread to discuss the latest patch which was applied on the 14th of November.

My own experience has shown me there is absolutely no justification for changing it.
After testing, the system revealed itself to be extremely unstable and pointless. Utilizing private drug labs no longer seems convenient.

The goal of this is to transfer players to public drug labs and is completely understandable, but I think there’s more to cooking than most people think.

However, with that recent change, cooking in a private lab has become totally useless and all the money a player have spent on a big lab goes the same way.

The Good:

• The spilling is a realistic way to replicate a real life phenomenon–the spilling of chemicals once you throw in the combination.
• It’s another task to do while cooking, so it's not as easy. It also gives you another thing to do instead of being afk to only pour water every now and then.

The Bad:

• The script is broken, ;

1. Once you successfully clean the spill of a drug table, a whole different group of tables gets cleaned as well or its spill randomly vanishes.
2. The action timers when a cook is in-operation of a big lab makes it difficult to handle, hence a huge loss to those who own big labs.
3. Once the change is in effect, on the 17th, people will only be able to cook on 10 tables at most. As NBDY stated, when a table is under the spill effect, it’ll go warmer.

• Cooking ticks of having to pour water every 4 minutes is too low for you to do two tasks at once.

Solutions: (please try to add your solutions or adjust to mine and be constructive)

• First of all, fix this bug as I believe it is part of the mess:

https://forum.eclipse-rp.net/topic/113516-ui-drug-table-shifting-options-at-the-end-of-cook/

• Revert back to the old system.
• Make the spill ticks significantly low and let spills only happen after the cook is finished and that it doesn’t affect the heating of the table, however, for every spill tick, it adds up one action timer tick. So, if one spill happens and another and another (3), you have to do the action timer 3 times, and in the end, you can’t add more chemicals to a table for the new cook in the future if the table is spilled so you would only have to clean up after finishing cooking.

 

[Suken]

I agree with you, i understand the developer's view of why you can see at some times 200 player online but can't find anyone around in the city. 

but in the same way, don't make it harder for crims. Banks and it is almost camped at all times. Stores with recent update of packed money decent, Labs Garbage and LSD lap are camped one bullet and it is swarmed by LEO's. it is already hard with the financial system for criminals where to have to order ak and armor requires a budget. and long effort (talking about other players in general before anyone comments about being poor and etc. being rich doesn't make i can stomp over others who are new to server or tryin to make their way up)

[iTears]

Hello,

As someone who owns a large lab this update doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Yes I do understand like look now you can go cook at the labs and you will have alot more interactions, but the risk verse reward is to unbalanced, people who run labs regularly know that people run in large groups. Basically in order to protect your cook at a lab you will need 15 people to protect one persons cook that takes around an hour per 100 LSD (example). I agree with the above post completely, drugs are the main source of income for crims and those of us that have been doing this for a long time and spent millions on property/tables/vents for it all be restricted in the sense now I can only cook on 10-20 tables instead of the 100 I have set up doesnt make a whole lot of sense. The spill timer takes away so much time thus restricting the amount of tables that can be in use at once. 

Real life people cook in private labs, if crims received a more balanced reward vs risk for cooking at a lab with 15 people thats different. Not to mention cops camp the labs because they are bored, nor do we have access to silencers anymore so one shot at LSD/garbage cops will already be there. 

[Antonio_Colombo]

Idea to counter balance things between cops and crims - if crims has chance of spilling while cooking, cops should have random 10% chance each IG hour of having a hearth attack and their character die on spot, containing all of the guns and gear for crims to grab.

Why not add some negative to cops? Only negative changes are for crims, while cops receive only positive changes. Not fair. 

[AbsoluteBadonkers]

This makes some really good points, but as we all know this was something to nerf cooking and make it more difficult for criminals, so it’s unlikely it will be changed, if it does it probably won’t be very much

regardless, +1 from me as it is a very annoying addition

[Requiem]

48 minutes ago, Suken said:

I agree with you, i understand the developer's view of why you can see at some times 200 player online but can't find anyone around in the city. 

but in the same way, don't make it harder for crims. Banks and it is almost camped at all times. Stores with recent update of packed money decent, Labs Garbage and LSD lap are camped one bullet and it is swarmed by LEO's. it is already hard with the financial system for criminals where to have to order ak and armor requires a budget. and long effort (talking about other players in general before anyone comments about being poor and etc. being rich doesn't make i can stomp over others who are new to server or tryin to make their way up)

It would be nice to see more people not camped inside their house solo...

Secondly, if someone chooses to shoot in/near a city, its realistic that cops would respond. IC actions (shooting) have IC consequences. And this isn't even always the case. Just two days ago, PD responded to a shootout situation at the garbage area lab and by the time anyone even got there from PD, all the surviving crims were already gone and all the bodies looted for anything valuable. I think you overestimate response times from PD (although response times may vary).

43 minutes ago, iTears said:

 Not to mention cops camp the labs because they are bored, nor do we have access to silencers anymore so one shot at LSD/garbage cops will already be there. 

This comment is not true. Cops do not camp labs. There are OOC faction rules that do not allow PD to camp static labs, and I have never seen anyone in legal factions camp labs. If they do, feel free to OOC IA report them to faction management as they shouldn't be doing this. The silencer thing will be resolved with the gun update, they didn't permanently go away. Also, see comment above...response times of LEOs will vary. 

 

18 minutes ago, Antonio_Colombo said:

Idea to counter balance things between cops and crims - if crims has chance of spilling while cooking, cops should have random 10% chance each IG hour of having a hearth attack and their character die on spot, containing all of the guns and gear for crims to grab.

Why not add some negative to cops? Only negative changes are for crims, while cops receive only positive changes. Not fair. 

Why does this have to turn into cop vs crim? Just keep on a productive discussion about the drug tables. Its a really terrible attitude to want to ruin other peoples experiences just because you are unhappy. Be part of the positive change, not the negative. 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Bill Breacher

[Requiem]

Overall, the patch was likely implemented the way it was to try out the spills, but not have any negative effects for a few days to try it out. I am sure that if staff/dev's find that it was not a good change, they can and maybe will revert it. No need to lose your mind about something that hasn't even had an impact yet.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Bill Breacher

[Suken]

39 minutes ago, Bill Breacher said:

It would be nice to see more people not camped inside their house solo...

Secondly, if someone chooses to shoot in/near a city, its realistic that cops would respond. IC actions (shooting) have IC consequences. And this isn't even always the case. Just two days ago, PD responded to a shootout situation at the garbage area lab and by the time anyone even got there from PD, all the surviving crims were already gone and all the bodies looted for anything valuable. I think you overestimate response times from PD (although response times may vary).

This comment is not true. Cops do not camp labs. There are OOC faction rules that do not allow PD to camp static labs, and I have never seen anyone in legal factions camp labs. If they do, feel free to OOC IA report them to faction management as they shouldn't be doing this. The silencer thing will be resolved with the gun update, they didn't permanently go away. Also, see comment above...response times of LEOs will vary. 

 

Why does this have to turn into cop vs crim? Just keep on a productive discussion about the drug tables. Its a really terrible attitude to want to ruin other peoples experiences just because you are unhappy. Be part of the positive change, not the negative. 

one simple question. Do you have a fully established crim character ?

[Suken]

37 minutes ago, Bill Breacher said:

Overall, the patch was likely implemented the way it was to try out the spills, but not have any negative effects for a few days to try it out. I am sure that if staff/dev's find that it was not a good change, they can and maybe will revert it. No need to lose your mind about something that hasn't even had an impact yet.

cause from your comments you seem very one sided and I don't believe you have a criminal character so i would kindly ask you to keep your unnecessary not friendly at all comments to yourself otherwise refrain from comments no one is losing his minds here! 

When you be fully engaged on both sides you would understand what we are speaking about!

[MrSilky]

Hey!

These changes were discussed with many people prior to implementation including current and past criminal faction leaders. The idea is to make labs still be valuable, but to work collaboratively to maintain a "mega lab". You will still be able to maintain a realistically sized lab solo, but I'm sure we can all agree solo maintaining 100 tables was a bit wild.

Implementations are subject to change following review and feedback - Just try it out and work together, see how you go. You might enjoy the interactions a bit more

Silky

[Antonio_Colombo]

3 hours ago, Bill Breacher said:

It would be nice to see more people not camped inside their house solo...

Secondly, if someone chooses to shoot in/near a city, its realistic that cops would respond. IC actions (shooting) have IC consequences. And this isn't even always the case. Just two days ago, PD responded to a shootout situation at the garbage area lab and by the time anyone even got there from PD, all the surviving crims were already gone and all the bodies looted for anything valuable. I think you overestimate response times from PD (although response times may vary).

This comment is not true. Cops do not camp labs. There are OOC faction rules that do not allow PD to camp static labs, and I have never seen anyone in legal factions camp labs. If they do, feel free to OOC IA report them to faction management as they shouldn't be doing this. The silencer thing will be resolved with the gun update, they didn't permanently go away. Also, see comment above...response times of LEOs will vary. 

 

Why does this have to turn into cop vs crim? Just keep on a productive discussion about the drug tables. Its a really terrible attitude to want to ruin other peoples experiences just because you are unhappy. Be part of the positive change, not the negative. 

But... I am suggesting positive suggestion, in this case it is positive for crims (for a change). No need to be angry if you are unhappy about it!

[Bala]

It's unfortunate that we've been dependent on private labs for so long, because if you can cook drugs conveniently and safely in an interior that you can only get into and then changes come along which threaten or change that in any negative way, you are going to feel negative about it.

For me, there is room for public and private labs. I think if you have the organisation and the resources to run a private lab, it makes sense to do it. If you're a struggling, lower ender criminal that can't afford a property or the equipment, then a public lab is for more for you.

Is a private lab good for the server right now? Kind of not, we need players in world but I think if you go full 2019 and force players to only public labs then you end up with big fish fucking little fish and little fish not really having anything to do so, there is a place for private cooking.

I don't really understand the spill mechanic and what it means right now but in general, the overheating mechanic was never something I necessarily liked. Your apartment only really blew up if you were negligent but if you were smart, you'd never be found out. It also feels like constantly having to keep tables cool is like keeping plates spinning.

I'll borrow from Rust/DayZ for a second here but what if instead of overheating, we went with something like;

• You have to use a fuel source like a generator or gas to power the lab equipment to cook.
  If you run out of fuel, the negative is that your production stops. Similiar to how a Rust furnace works. No wood in the furnace? Can't smelt Metal Frags etc..
  Perhaps allow the oil refinery job to either drop their barrels for money or fuel. If they choose fuel, they can sell it to people for their lab equipment. 
  That adds use to a job and brings potentially more P2P interaction.
   
• Add a damage status to the lab equipment.
  The more times you use the lab equipment to cook, it will degrade over time from say pristine to functional to unstable to ruined.
  Once it becomes quite degraded, it'll become unstable, it'll be a bit like Russian roulette to use it because every time it could go off.
  The lab equipment would last quite a while but it wouldn't be infinite so eventually you'd have to get a new table since you wouldn't be able to cook if it was ruined. 
  Lab equipment prices would have to be reviewed in this case though for balance.
   
• The more equipment going in an interior, signs of what is going on inside would appear outside the property.
  We recently added the /fdos and we could have something similiar by the doors of properties such as, ** You would see smoke coming from under the door ** or ** You would notice a strong smell of chemicals by the door ** or if there were a lot of ventilators going ** You would hear the sound of machinery inside. **
  That encourages moderate sized labs but also for people to have security on their properties and be more mindful of their activities being exposed.
   
• Restock the Public Labs as they were in 2019 but split the drugs that you can make in a public lab and a private lab into two different qualities, High Grade and Low Grade. Thanks @alexalex303 for this idea.
  Public meth would fetch less money per gram than private lab made meth. You run more risk being discovered at a public lab but if you get caught there, the equipment isn't yours so the collateral cost is less. The private labs are more professionally run, with better equipment so the yield would RPly be better.

As for cops camping labs, if you have any evidence of any LSPD Faction Members doing that, then you are welcome to either inform us or legal faction management about it and we will make sure that it does not happen that way. If we discover it naturally or through RP it's legit, but no cop should be rolling labs IMO.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Bala

[Suken]

27 minutes ago, Bala said:

It's unfortunate that we've been dependent on private labs for so long, because if you can cook drugs conveniently and safely in an interior that you can only get into and then changes come along which threaten or change that in any negative way, you are going to feel negative about it.

For me, there is room for public and private labs. I think if you have the organisation and the resources to run a private lab, it makes sense to do it. If you're a struggling, lower ender criminal that can't afford a property or the equipment, then a public lab is for more for you.

Is a private lab good for the server right now? Kind of not, we need players in world but I think if you go full 2019 and force players to only public labs then you end up with big fish fucking little fish and little fish not really having anything to do so, there is a place for private cooking.

I don't really understand the spill mechanic and what it means right now but in general, the overheating mechanic was never something I necessarily liked. Your apartment only really blew up if you were negligent but if you were smart, you'd never be found out. It also feels like constantly having to keep tables cool is like keeping plates spinning.

I'll borrow from Rust/DayZ for a second here but what if instead of overheating, we went with something like;

• You have to use a fuel source like a generator or gas to power the lab equipment to cook.
  If you run out of fuel, the negative is that your production stops. Similiar to how a Rust furnace works. No wood in the furnace? Can't smelt Metal Frags etc..
  Perhaps allow the oil refinery job to either drop their barrels for money or fuel. If they choose fuel, they can sell it to people for their lab equipment. 
  That adds use to a job and brings potentially more P2P interaction.
   
• Add a damage status to the lab equipment.
  The more times you use the lab equipment to cook, it will degrade over time from say pristine to functional to unstable to ruined.
  Once it becomes quite degraded, it'll become unstable, it'll be a bit like Russian roulette to use it because every time it could go off.
  The lab equipment would last quite a while but it wouldn't be infinite so eventually you'd have to get a new table since you wouldn't be able to cook if it was ruined. 
  Lab equipment prices would have to be reviewed in this case though for balance.
   
• The more equipment going in an interior, signs of what is going on inside would appear outside the property.
  We recently added the /fdos and we could have something similiar by the doors of properties such as, ** You would see smoke coming from under the door ** or ** You would notice a strong smell of chemicals by the door ** or if there were a lot of ventilators going ** You would hear the sound of machinery inside. **
  That encourages moderate sized labs but also for people to have security on their properties and be more mindful of their activities being exposed.
   
• Restock the Public Labs as they were in 2019 but split the drugs that you can make in a public lab and a private lab into two different qualities, High Grade and Low Grade. Thanks @alexalex303 for this idea.
  Public meth would fetch less money per gram than private lab made meth. You run more risk being discovered at a public lab but if you get caught there, the equipment isn't yours so the collateral cost is less. The private labs are more professionally run, with better equipment so the yield would RPly be better.

As for cops camping labs, if you have any evidence of any LSPD Faction Members doing that, then you are welcome to either inform us or legal faction management about it and we will make sure that it does not happen that way. If we discover it naturally or through RP it's legit, but no cop should be rolling labs IMO.

Thank you for the constructive reply and i believe with more people like you giving up ideas and different perspective we can fetch some ideas from multiple people and add them together to create the best out of it all!

[Waryerz]

After trying a cook for the first time, I can understand why the update was added but it needs to be balanced. For starters, nobody knows how much of an effect a spill will have on the heat, but it needs to be relatively low or else running a lab by yourself will be impossible. Maintaining just 25 drug tables is difficult with how often drugs spill, and with the amount of spills you have plus 5 second-ish action timers, there's no way to effectively keep your lab in condition. I like the idea of a change being made, and cleaning drug tables actually makes lots of sense and I fully support it, but some balance changes are needed for it to work.

Private drug labs are a necessary part of the criminal economy. Not every player has a group with body armor and assault rifles to hold down a public lab for an hour and make 100 drugs. It should remain plausible for somebody to cook in a private lab with some sort of safety with a system that is manageable. Private labs are and always will be high risk and high reward. Prior to this update, you could argue that the reward is somewhat more than the risk, however, I feel as if this update tips the scales and throws off balance, making the risk much higher than the reward.

Table spills shouldn't have a major effect on heat, maybe at most making things heat up 5% faster. Spills are way too frequent, from trying it out and experiencing it, and the rate of which they occur needs to be significantly reduced to something manageable. If spills aren't extremely dangerous to the point where leaving one unattended for a few seconds can ruin your day, then it's fair. It adds a second action for you to do. Instead of cook, cool, cool, cool, it could be cook, cool, clean, cool, clean. As long as you can reasonably cook alone, the update can work. It's no secret that cooking is something that is a staple for solo criminals. 

I look forward to seeing what changes come from the feedback before this is implemented and how people will adapt to this. It's a big change, just like apartments being disabled for cooking, and there will be adapting necessary but it isn't all bad, it just needs some work done.

TLDR; The update is cool and it has potential, but it needs some balancing changes such as less spills and a low heat modifier to keep private labs relevant. As of right now, balance changes are definitely needed to the script. 

[Celestial]

It's going to take a few experiments and explosions for the spilling once it's in effect which is a bad loss margin. 

I'd also like to see a reintroduction to the refilling in properties system officially instead of it being considered a bug that got removed, regardless of people who had sinks in their property for good rp.

The furniture store sink items could have a 'Refill Water Bottle' WI (for the radius, and the one in inventory would be for natural sources). Each bottle would take 0.5s to refill, so 25 (50 vol.) would take 12.5s. That can later be added into the properties taxing for running water in a property. The same would work with the refilling in inventory system. 

I generally think that would balance the system even more whether the spill heating stays or not because it's hard to be refilling water bottles with over-volume in your inventory/crate such as holding 1000 vol. worth of bottles in your inventory due to the inventory system allowing it to fully maximize. This is a small thing to work on that is beneficial for everyone and balanced instead of the insta-refill feature. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Celestial

[Antonio_Colombo]

7 hours ago, Bala said:

It's unfortunate that we've been dependent on private labs for so long, because if you can cook drugs conveniently and safely in an interior that you can only get into and then changes come along which threaten or change that in any negative way, you are going to feel negative about it.

For me, there is room for public and private labs. I think if you have the organisation and the resources to run a private lab, it makes sense to do it. If you're a struggling, lower ender criminal that can't afford a property or the equipment, then a public lab is for more for you.

Is a private lab good for the server right now? Kind of not, we need players in world but I think if you go full 2019 and force players to only public labs then you end up with big fish fucking little fish and little fish not really having anything to do so, there is a place for private cooking.

I don't really understand the spill mechanic and what it means right now but in general, the overheating mechanic was never something I necessarily liked. Your apartment only really blew up if you were negligent but if you were smart, you'd never be found out. It also feels like constantly having to keep tables cool is like keeping plates spinning.

I'll borrow from Rust/DayZ for a second here but what if instead of overheating, we went with something like;

• You have to use a fuel source like a generator or gas to power the lab equipment to cook.
  If you run out of fuel, the negative is that your production stops. Similiar to how a Rust furnace works. No wood in the furnace? Can't smelt Metal Frags etc..
  Perhaps allow the oil refinery job to either drop their barrels for money or fuel. If they choose fuel, they can sell it to people for their lab equipment. 
  That adds use to a job and brings potentially more P2P interaction.
   
• Add a damage status to the lab equipment.
  The more times you use the lab equipment to cook, it will degrade over time from say pristine to functional to unstable to ruined.
  Once it becomes quite degraded, it'll become unstable, it'll be a bit like Russian roulette to use it because every time it could go off.
  The lab equipment would last quite a while but it wouldn't be infinite so eventually you'd have to get a new table since you wouldn't be able to cook if it was ruined. 
  Lab equipment prices would have to be reviewed in this case though for balance.
   
• The more equipment going in an interior, signs of what is going on inside would appear outside the property.
  We recently added the /fdos and we could have something similiar by the doors of properties such as, ** You would see smoke coming from under the door ** or ** You would notice a strong smell of chemicals by the door ** or if there were a lot of ventilators going ** You would hear the sound of machinery inside. **
  That encourages moderate sized labs but also for people to have security on their properties and be more mindful of their activities being exposed.
   
• Restock the Public Labs as they were in 2019 but split the drugs that you can make in a public lab and a private lab into two different qualities, High Grade and Low Grade. Thanks @alexalex303 for this idea.
  Public meth would fetch less money per gram than private lab made meth. You run more risk being discovered at a public lab but if you get caught there, the equipment isn't yours so the collateral cost is less. The private labs are more professionally run, with better equipment so the yield would RPly be better.

As for cops camping labs, if you have any evidence of any LSPD Faction Members doing that, then you are welcome to either inform us or legal faction management about it and we will make sure that it does not happen that way. If we discover it naturally or through RP it's legit, but no cop should be rolling labs IMO.

As someone who had spend fair share playing dayz, I strongly agree to your suggestions. There so much mechanics from that game that would fit into here, but problem is the casual rp'ers who will cry out that game is hard and it takes a lot of things to do something successfully, but IMHO that is exactly what is needed. One example I would add, is that guns /ammo/silencers also could have some sort of dayz condition statistics, meaning a ruined gun can never be repaired or used, while heavily damaged one will work for shot or two, but eventually will jam, thus needing to clean bullet out of chamber, taking some time for it(action timer)? Would Def. Add some realism and would force players to be more careful about what actions the carry out. 

+1

[Armando_Zampelli]

Yeah, lets just make it harder for the criminals, while the PD won’t have problems with those issues like jamming issues because its all being provided. The PD has an infinite budget. First the gloves that you buy for 2.5k and lose everytime you get arrested because cops dont care and dont put it in the doc lockerbox. And now also suggesting attachments? This while the gov is getting commands like /trackphone or /backup (/em to make it easier)? Most People that are playing crim can barely buy a gun and I just see changes that will irritate the community even more (crim side) how much do you want us to pay for a firearm, 100k eventually? Like for this to work the weapon prices have too be REALLY low like IRL

Heck i could produce drugs easier IRL lol. 

like you buy a weed table but can’t make blunts thru it like why? Whats the logic in that. Easy money? We dont want that do we.

And now also adding the extra cockblock “the spilling”, like not everyone spills everytime. There is already smoke coming out, you already have a chance that your shit could blow up you also have the chance to get raided by rivals or the PD. But thats not enough lets make it even harder so we no longer have criminals in the city eventually cause thats where we headed.

Before ppl start screaming realism this or realism that, go look at the PD parkinglot, the only thing missing is a big yacht and a private jet. Its their city. 
 

 

[Antonio_Colombo]

23 minutes ago, Armando_Zampelli said:

Yeah, lets just make it harder for the criminals, while the PD won’t have problems with those issues like jamming issues because its all being provided. The PD has an infinite budget. First the gloves that you buy for 2.5k and lose everytime you get arrested because cops dont care and dont put it in the doc lockerbox. And now also suggesting attachments? This while the gov is getting commands like /trackphone or /backup (/em to make it easier)? Most People that are playing crim can barely buy a gun and I just see changes that will irritate the community even more (crim side) how much do you want us to pay for a firearm, 100k eventually? Like for this to work the weapon prices have too be REALLY low like IRL

Heck i could produce drugs easier IRL lol. 

like you buy a weed table but can’t make blunts thru it like why? Whats the logic in that. Easy money? We dont want that do we.

And now also adding the extra cockblock “the spilling”, like not everyone spills everytime. There is already smoke coming out, you already have a chance that your shit could blow up you also have the chance to get raided by rivals or the PD. But thats not enough lets make it even harder so we no longer have criminals in the city eventually cause thats where we headed.

Before ppl start screaming realism this or realism that, go look at the PD parkinglot, the only thing missing is a big yacht and a private jet. Its their city. 
 

 

I did not mean to adding jams to crims only, but to police as well. They should cover gun upkeep from their pocket, and whole pd budget should be limited to what it receives from government, not more not less. Infinite resources vs finite crim resources is totally out of balance, it would be interesting for cops themselves that they have more red lines that should not be crossed, and if they do cross, they have severe ic consequences. 

Another good idea might be to add some random loot into static vehicles. They did good job in making it sometimes hard to know if it's player owned or static. Today alone, I did around 15 static cars, and for a solo crim it pays literally negative, because considering spending money on boby pins, possible jail risk, it is not worth it. Adding a few items that players can either pawn shop or use, could balance that out. There could be anything ranging from GPS or map, to heavy guns (in rare occasions), pistols, drugs etc. 

But facing reality, one can only dream of such changes, as they will pile up and get forgotten eventually. 

[Paulius]

If you dont like the way private labs work, dont use it