Detectives' scripts hidden from the community and from criticism

[Skengprostie]

A huge part of development and improvement of the server and community relies on suggestions and discussion, parts of the server such as crim jobs, doc, acceptable language and behaviour and elements of the legal side have had huge improvements because of discussions that non-staff members of the community have made and talked about. 

Another huge part of the server that's always being talked about is cops on the server and their methods of arresting and jailing people which is why cops and crims have always argued, I really don't see how it makes sense to have the main part of this hidden from the community. All the abilities of detectives on the server have been hidden from the community for MG reasons and only a select few people (mainly the people that benefit from them) know what detectives can and can't do. I guess this keeps the element of surprise in the server however its also the main cause of a lot of issues.

By hiding the abilities of the detectives, you also take away the ability for the community to make their suggestions, which has fixed many problems in the past. Then instead of players remaining clueless and just having it out for PD, getting frustrated, demotivated, careless and causing a rivalry there could be more clarity too. The server in my eyes has always aimed for fairness and realism, however this part of the servers always been out of contact for suggestions and opinions on improvement which as I mentioned earlier also happens to be the cause for a lot of problems that lead people to leave the server. 

No one that this actually effects can actually appeal what happened and if they make a report all they get is "information hidden to prevent metagaming" and so are left with the impression of unfairness, this is why I think people should be allowed to know what they can do. There could be the most unfair script and no one could do anything about it due to having no knowledge of it and I doubt anyone benefitting from it would mention it being too unfair.

In short, Give players the opportunity to discuss the currently hidden methods PD/SD instead of hiding it from criticism from the rest of the community. 

[Clank]

Just say you want IC information to be relayed to you OOCly and call it a day. Don't use the disguise that you want to "suggest" things. 

[Melody Frey]

1 hour ago, Clank said:

Just say you want IC information to be relayed to you OOCly and call it a day. Don't use the disguise that you want to "suggest" things. 

I'll say that I'm not sure that they necessarily want the IC info relayed OOCly, but I will say that I think there's a big disconnect somewhere from detectives to the rest of the server. 

Detectives to my knowledge don't have their own scripts that they can actually use outside of very minor things like checking prints, matching bullets to guns, and tracking phones from what I understand. While I could totally be wrong on that, I genuinely don't think that they really have much else and if they do; it's very little and probably not worth mentioning here. All of the things detectives do (finding addresses, stalking crims, surveying areas, arresting crims, etc.) are pretty much available for everyone else to do, you just have to have the proper IC routes to take.

Scriptly I genuinely don't think they have much more than any other cop.

[Ash]

If you think there’s some big conspiracy just become one and then tell everyone these super dark secrets?

Its really not as dramatic as you make it out to be though, the reason it’s hidden in reports is usually down to stuff like “we actually caught them lacking and saw them leave their stash” or “someone close to them is snitching to us” and other things like that, main reason they’re not explained in things like reports is because they’ll 100% affect your ic decisions going forwards, which is metagaming.

Pretty sure lots of people know what scripts they have available, the rest is purely so people don’t metagame the info .

[Clank]

1 hour ago, Melody Frey said:

I'll say that I'm not sure that they necessarily want the IC info relayed OOCly, but I will say that I think there's a big disconnect somewhere from detectives to the rest of the server. 

Detectives to my knowledge don't have their own scripts that they can actually use outside of very minor things like checking prints, matching bullets to guns, and tracking phones from what I understand. While I could totally be wrong on that, I genuinely don't think that they really have much else and if they do; it's very little and probably not worth mentioning here. All of the things detectives do (finding addresses, stalking crims, surveying areas, arresting crims, etc.) are pretty much available for everyone else to do, you just have to have the proper IC routes to take.

Scriptly I genuinely don't think they have much more than any other cop.

See you seem to understand it. 

 

I personally don't think there is a disconnect between people that make detective and the rest of the server. Making detective, (at least in PD) - is a long journey that filters out a lot of people. Not only do you have to be in the department long enough to achieve a certain rank, you also need to go through the detective training program which can last multiple months. That is two filters that knocks out anyone that can't get into the mindset for it.

 

There's not much that a person set into the detective branch in the F4 menu has different than a regular law enforcement officer. You hit the hammer on the head there with your explanation. A lot of the "gotcha" moments that you get when you deal with detectives is mostly due to hard work, elbow grease and a sprinkle of outside-the-box thinking.

 

I'll be honest. The ballistics system is wack, the lack of script supported GSR tests is wack and the lack of forensics script is wack. I think fixing the ballistic system and the addition of the latter two things I mentioned there would help people in game a lot. Less /me and /do and more script support for things that ultimately might put a player in prison for a long time. Having to /me and /do forensics and GSR really leaves people with a sour taste as it feels like a chess match trying to see who wins by wording things better.

 

To reiterate my original post, I think the original discussion here was posted with mal-intent. Lets be honest, nobody needs to know IC procedures of anyone in an OOC matter other than administrators. Why should I as a cop be informed of how the drop system works without finding out through in-character means. Why does a criminal need to know how a player business works without finding out through in-character means. Why does a civilian need to know how investigations are performed without finding out through in-character means?  I feel like using the guise of "WE MUST KNOW HOW DETECTIVES OPERATE OOCLY SO WE CAN SUGGEST THINGS" is just a huge straw man and tu quoque.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Clank
typo fix xx

[Hazel]

I'm honestly not sure what the point of this discussion is - any and all changes to Detectives, their IC/OOC operations, script suggestions and anything else is handled through a variety of internal channels with oversight from faction leadership and appropriate administrative staff.

As outlined above, most of what gets hidden is information that you being privy to could easily affect your IC decisions.

[Bala]

I'll be honest with you, if you knew, you'd just be disappointed.

Not every question has to be answered.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Bala

[Xoza]

Those who need to know like staff and developers, who make adjustments, changes, rules and develop around those abilities, know what these tools are and moderate them as needed. Players do not need to know all the tools and tactics of other factions to 'critisize' them, when they don't have experience with them.

Do you know Weazel News blip and ad scripts and policies? What about mechanics and what they can do? Did you know most officers don't even know the scripts and tools available to Criminal Factions? The players that to know, have experience or have been told about it IC.

The fact that a lot of players do know certain things, that wouldn't make a lot of sense to know is meta. Factions have a fraction of true capability of what should be realisiticly possible. If you want to know, you should experience it yourself by being part of the faction. Then, as @Bala stated, you'd probably be a little disapointed.

It's all part of the experience.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Xoza

[Ritchie Stones]

on one side, i believe this to be true, but on the other, if you knew how it works it invites for an easy strategy to work around, I like some secrecy in this server, it has always motivated me to work a new strategy. kills the magic you know, 

[Lewis]

There's nothing about the script which is unfair towards either side. 

As said numerous times this could influence game-play.