Firearms licenses...

[Zero_0]

Good day every one, its my first time posting anything in here so im just gonna try keeping it short.

I havent been in the server for a long time but most people I am friends with all agree that Firearm's licenses are kind of a joke. What i mean by this is its alot of hassle to apply for it and the moment you use your gun either for self defence or just get caught with it on you for a crime you didnt even use it for (i.e the gun being in the glove box) your firearms license immediately gets revoked with no warnings whatsoever(If there are firearms license suspension ive not heard from anyone using it). Adding to this is the much more easier way to just pay a couple thousand dollars to bypass this problem. 

I know that guns are all ready easy to get in the server but keeping a gun on you for self defence LEGALLY is very very difficult.


 

[Jremyboiz]

There are laws set in place IC for self Defense. Just read through those very carefully so you know what you can and can't do if you if you want to get a Firearms permit.

[Ash]

This process is handled completely in-character. You could join LSPD and try to change the processes if you wanted.

But the end line is, you do certain crimes and you get your license revoked. Sure you can pay a few thousand dollars to bypass it and get an illegal gun, but then you get the risk of being arrested for that.

I have had my gun license for 3 and a half years and I’ve used it for self defence a few times and never had it removed because I did it within the IC guidelines given. Nearly all legal characters retain their gun licenses because it’s pretty explicitly stated what you can and can’t do with it.

If you’re playing a criminal character don’t expect to retain your legal license for very long.

[Zero_0]

5 minutes ago, Ash said:

 

I have had my gun license for 3 and a half years and I’ve used it for self defence a few times and never had it removed because I did it within the IC guidelines given. Nearly all legal characters retain their gun licenses because it’s pretty explicitly stated what you can and can’t do with it.

If you’re playing a criminal character don’t expect to retain your legal license for very long.

Me and a couple of people only used our guns for self defence wasnt even about being a criminal just straight up trying to defend ourselves and everyone around us. all of a sudden because i used my gun to shoot someone and the cops arrived basically only seeing me shoot someone not even taking everyone else's statement around us i get my license revoked, a criminal record and i lose any future i have to get a government job because of said record with not even a suspension issued. sure it could just be chalked up to BAD RP but couldnt we atleast have a demerit system for this instead of immediately just putting the maximum amount of sentence.

 

[Thang]

1 hour ago, Zero_0 said:

Me and a couple of people only used our guns for self defence wasnt even about being a criminal just straight up trying to defend ourselves and everyone around us. all of a sudden because i used my gun to shoot someone and the cops arrived basically only seeing me shoot someone not even taking everyone else's statement around us i get my license revoked, a criminal record and i lose any future i have to get a government job because of said record with not even a suspension issued. sure it could just be chalked up to BAD RP but couldnt we atleast have a demerit system for this instead of immediately just putting the maximum amount of sentence.

 

You can try to appeal your charges with JB. 

[Ash]

Yeah either you were charged correctly, in which case you should pursue icly to get it changed if you disagree with it.

or you were charged wrongly, in which case you can pursue various methods to dispute it icly. 

[Cyrus Raven]

Keep in mind what you think is self-defense might not be IC'ly valid. Example: You might think that chasing someone down for various miles after they've tried to kill you is self-defense, but IC'ly that would not be the case. As mentioned before here, read VERY carefully the IC guide for self-defense and if you still think you were wrongly charged, contact someone from JB and explain what happened (or file an IA report against whoever took it from you.)

[Zero_0]

8 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

Keep in mind what you think is self-defense might not be IC'ly valid. Example: You might think that chasing someone down for various miles after they've tried to kill you is self-defense, but IC'ly that would not be the case. As mentioned before here, read VERY carefully the IC guide for self-defense and if you still think you were wrongly charged, contact someone from JB and explain what happened (or file an IA report against whoever took it from you.)

the self defence event was basically me shooting someone for stabbing a bunch of my friends a cop pulls up only saw me shooting a guy and i got arrested for attempted murder i didnt really even try and argue my charge except saying that i was defending myself and a bunch of people with the same people cooberating my story. not really mad at that particular event but i have had Friends in their civilian characters get charged for trying to defend themselves. it just happens so frequently that i think a change in the law might be a good idea.

[Buggs]

The problem is... that this isn't the first story of "I had my gun license removed for no reason."

Cops arrest people on ECRP all the time for no reason. That is the problem.

It should be about conducting an investigation and doing actual cop RP, instead of charging the person and moving on. BODYCAM IS NOT EVERYTHING

• Collect pictures of the crime scene
  • ex: if there's a hit and run, you don't need bodycam proof that it happened to charge the person. You need to RP! Look at both of the cars, look at the injured person, look to see if there would be blood on the car, etc etc.
  • ex: if someone accuses someone of stabbing them look at the wound, take pictures of the knife, of the scene, of the person, swab the knife, send the evidence to MD etc etc.

If you want proof, check out different court cases where they've been found not guilty. Investigation RP doesn't exist and typical LEO's in ECRP think that that type of RP is saved for detectives or investigators.

LSSD and LSPD are the judge and the jury when they're charging people, it would be nice if they created a solid case or took 5 mins + to look around before sending someone to jail for 1+ hour of their time. 

For instance, I had someone actually check my criminals crowbar and then say they were going to match the paint on my crowbar to that of the vending machines to prove that I was the one who committed the crime. WOW! THAT WAS FUN! I really actually enjoyed the fact that I could make up a story, and have it be good/terrible enough, that he is now doing a criminal investigation into my character to see if/prove she lied. IMAGINE IF EVERYONE DID THAT! People might feel like they were being reasonable charged.

[Bala]

"If crims could only know cops, they would neither idolize nor hate." - Dezzy Bala

Let's not make generalised statements and present them as facts or representative of a faction of a 100+ people arresting like 20-30 people a day and assume that we don't get more arrests wrong than we do right. Just because YOU have in your own mind been personally wronged, does not mean that everyone else has or in fact that you have.

We have the server we have, with the cops we have and the crims we have, so we make the best of it. If that's not good enough for you, I don't know what to tell you.

[Requiem]

2 hours ago, Buggs said:

The problem is... that this isn't the first story of "I had my gun license removed for no reason."

Cops arrest people on ECRP all the time for no reason. That is the problem.

It should be about conducting an investigation and doing actual cop RP, instead of charging the person and moving on. BODYCAM IS NOT EVERYTHING

• Collect pictures of the crime scene
  • ex: if there's a hit and run, you don't need bodycam proof that it happened to charge the person. You need to RP! Look at both of the cars, look at the injured person, look to see if there would be blood on the car, etc etc.
  • ex: if someone accuses someone of stabbing them look at the wound, take pictures of the knife, of the scene, of the person, swab the knife, send the evidence to MD etc etc.

If you want proof, check out different court cases where they've been found not guilty. Investigation RP doesn't exist and typical LEO's in ECRP think that that type of RP is saved for detectives or investigators.

LSSD and LSPD are the judge and the jury when they're charging people, it would be nice if they created a solid case or took 5 mins + to look around before sending someone to jail for 1+ hour of their time. 

For instance, I had someone actually check my criminals crowbar and then say they were going to match the paint on my crowbar to that of the vending machines to prove that I was the one who committed the crime. WOW! THAT WAS FUN! I really actually enjoyed the fact that I could make up a story, and have it be good/terrible enough, that he is now doing a criminal investigation into my character to see if/prove she lied. IMAGINE IF EVERYONE DID THAT! People might feel like they were being reasonable charged.

As Bala said, I don't think it's fair to generalize all cops as not doing any investigative work and "arresting for no reason" all the time. Aside from this, cops are harassed for doing anything investigative EVERYDAY. I can speak from experience in saying that most often when I am on a scene where a crim has to sit in a car for more than 5 minutes, they start yelling and crying that they are sitting around and not being processed (or they just go into /b and say they have to log *conveniently*) and LEOs get rushed into finishing up and getting the prison time started. And honestly, I don't completely blame them either...its not fun for someone to just sit in a car and do nothing while LEOs do their RP (IF there is no involvement with the crim with RP). Can't have your cake and eat it too....

[Zero_0]

49 minutes ago, Requiem said:

As Bala said, I don't think it's fair to generalize all cops as not doing any investigative work and "arresting for no reason" all the time. Aside from this, cops are harassed for doing anything investigative EVERYDAY. I can speak from experience in saying that most often when I am on a scene where a crim has to sit in a car for more than 5 minutes, they start yelling and crying that they are sitting around and not being processed (or they just go into /b and say they have to log *conveniently*) and LEOs get rushed into finishing up and getting the prison time started. And honestly, I don't completely blame them either...its not fun for someone to just sit in a car and do nothing while LEOs do their RP (IF there is no involvement with the crim with RP). Can't have your cake and eat it too....

its not fair to generalize everyone that's not a cop as a criminal either. More often than not if someone is being accused of something its always GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. there's a lot of people who didn't do anything wrong get jailed for 1 hour just because they were perceived as hostile. Getting yelled at by someone because your doing your job is not ok sure but you also cant just take away my firearms license because he had a gun on him while being detained. 

I just want to say that the topic really isnt about cops vs crims but it being firearms licenses being too easy to take away while being hard to obtain and retain. a demerit system might work better other than that i dont really see how it could be made easier to keep a firearms license.

[Requiem]

52 minutes ago, Zero_0 said:

its not fair to generalize everyone that's not a cop as a criminal either. More often than not if someone is being accused of something its always GUILTY until proven INNOCENT. there's a lot of people who didn't do anything wrong get jailed for 1 hour just because they were perceived as hostile. Getting yelled at by someone because your doing your job is not ok sure but you also cant just take away my firearms license because he had a gun on him while being detained. 

I just want to say that the topic really isnt about cops vs crims but it being firearms licenses being too easy to take away while being hard to obtain and retain. a demerit system might work better other than that i dont really see how it could be made easier to keep a firearms license.

Gonna be honest, I have to agree with Ash above...there are many legal citizens that have had their firearms license for years without an issue and not having it revoked. You just need to be careful about how you use it. Just because you have a firearms license doesn't mean you can go full batman vigilante and deal with anyone messing with you on your own. In real life in the US, if you use your gun and even if its fully justified, you will likely end up in handcuffs and maybe even get charged with something as well regardless. I think the current firearms licensing system is fine. 

[Buggs]

10 hours ago, Bala said:

"If crims could only know cops, they would neither idolize nor hate." - Dezzy Bala

I've been a cop and have only recently started playing a criminal. I got the mentality that I have because I saw what happened to basic civilians who were forced into criminal RP due to the acts of lackluster investigation. (You essentially tried to make fun of my quote by literally ignoring the message behind it. It's about putting yourself in others shoes and understanding their point of view. Maybe... take a step back and realize it wasn't an attack on cops? Not everything has to turn into a cop vs crim fight. Especially when i am more of a middle of the road between the two type of person.)

10 hours ago, Requiem said:

As Bala said, I don't think it's fair to generalize all cops as not doing any investigative work and "arresting for no reason" all the time.

Both you and Bala unfortunately took my statements as all or none. Just cause I stated: "Cops arrest people on ECRP all the time for no reason" does not make it ALL cops and does not make it EVERY arrest. It is a fact that this happens, just like cops let people go for no reason all the time.

Pleaseeeeee read through something before making assumptions. I wasn't trying to hate on cops. I am trying to improve the overall RP of the server.

8 hours ago, Zero_0 said:

I just want to say that the topic really isnt about cops vs crims but it being firearms licenses being too easy to take away while being hard to obtain and retain. a demerit system might work better other than that i dont really see how it could be made easier to keep a firearms license.

I think this is a really great idea, but would have to be something that's brought up ICly, which brings us back to the initial problem. This is really an IC thing, but LSPD has made it abundantly clear on multiple occasions that they will not be changing anything.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Buggs

[Bala]

No no, don't back track now. 
You said all the time, there's no other way to interpret that other than it happens so much when in actuality, it probably happens every now and then.

Cops are the ones taking the licenses and cops are the ones issuing them, so if you're saying something negative about the firearm licenses then it's against Police?

We are going to be changing things with the upcoming gun update, I know this because I'm leading the proposals. Suffice to say, there will be probably be more reasons to take a license but also a shorter time period to allow someone to get one in again depending on the circumstances. If you make a certain level of mistake, you can get a do over in a reasonable amount of time. If you do certain crimes though, you're never getting one again.

Obviously all that stuff is IC but the whole process is something we're thinking about.

[Buggs]

1 minute ago, Bala said:

We are going to be changing things with the upcoming gun update, I know this because I'm leading the proposals. Suffice to say, there will be probably be more reasons to take a license but also a shorter time period to allow someone to get one in again depending on the circumstances. If you make a certain level of mistake, you can get a do over in a reasonable amount of time. If you do certain crimes though, you're never getting one again.

A. There was no back tracking. I quoted myself directly.

B. This is great to hear. I'm really excited. I've been hoping for some sort of reform.

2 minutes ago, Bala said:

You said all the time, there's no other way to interpret that other than it happens so much when in actuality, it probably happens every now and then.

According to court records it's almost a 50/50 split, in JB we count a singular charge being found not guilty as a win for the defense. Now, of course, there's cases that don't make it to court (the average) because the person is so used to going to jail, that they don't think twice about charges or being wrongfully charged (meaning possibly the wrong degree of a charge. AKA giving someone a misdemeanor when it should only be a citation at first. Then if the problem continues you escalate it to a misdemeanor. This is what I would say happens most often (in terms of wrongfully being charged), but I still consider it wrong. No, it's not the same as charging a completely innocent person, but still... wrong).

I know on my criminal character I've been wrongfully charged 3 out of the 5 times I've been arrested I think (no I'm not trying to over-exaggerate)? The only reason I know this is because COPS *gasp* were the ones that told my character that, but also my character doesn't complain cause she wants more jail time cause DOC is more fun now with the jobs and I like to laugh with cops by being a trolly criminal. Do I think about appealing the charges? Yes... but that's not really my characters style and I like to stick to what I feel my character would do over proving a point.

I digress. I always very much respect your opinions, Bala, and I love what you have done for the sever. As well as the cool updates you made to the map.

[Zero_0]

6 hours ago, Bala said:

 

We are going to be changing things with the upcoming gun update, I know this because I'm leading the proposals. Suffice to say, there will be probably be more reasons to take a license but also a shorter time period to allow someone to get one in again depending on the circumstances. If you make a certain level of mistake, you can get a do over in a reasonable amount of time. If you do certain crimes though, you're never getting one again.

would it be an overhaul to the way  firearms are handled in the server? or is it just bringing more guns to the server? im just asking now before i make another civilian character and turn my old one to my criminal character instead. since i do prefer being a normal CIV and wont have to wait for 3 months  for the charge i got to expire before i can apply for the license back.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Zero_0

[Ash]

1 hour ago, Zero_0 said:

would it be an overhaul to the way  firearms are handled in the server? or is it just bringing more guns to the server? im just asking now before i make another civilian character and turn my old one to my criminal character instead. since i do prefer being a normal CIV and wont have to wait for 3 months  for the charge i got to expire before i can apply for the license back.

Bit if a deviation but you don’t need a gun license to be a civilian roleplayer honestly mate. You can avoid situations where you’d “need” self defence pretty easily in most cases. If you want to continue with your character, having a legal gun shouldn’t be the deciding factor unless it’s preventing you from getting a specific job.

[Zero_0]

6 hours ago, Ash said:

Bit if a deviation but you don’t need a gun license to be a civilian roleplayer honestly mate. You can avoid situations where you’d “need” self defence pretty easily in most cases. If you want to continue with your character, having a legal gun shouldn’t be the deciding factor unless it’s preventing you from getting a specific job.

mostly want the gun for hunting and id be wierd if i try hunting a cop pulls up and asks if i have a license so im trying to do it legally

 

[Buggs]

You (the royal you) don't NEED a gun license, but it is very hard to be a true civilian role player without one (this is coming from my own experience as a civilian RP'r for months, RPing as a reformed criminal without a gun license trying to just be a civilian, and all the legal roleplay I've done). As a civilian in ECRP you almost toe the lie between what is criminal and what isn't. Solely because of affiliation, prior knowledge to crimes occurring, and a general lack of reporting crimes when they're committed. (Obviously all these actions are a choice, but (it is my opinion) if you want to survive in ECRP you cannot call cops as a civilian. (Based on experience) Cops will just end up telling whoever you reported that someone called in a tip, and as there's typically a limited amount of people that would've seen the crime, the perpetrators will know who called and will then try to kill you character)

Working at a legal job gives you some protection, and that's what I feel like a lot of people don't understand. A true civilian doesn't work for the government in some way shape or form, they work the normal freelance/hourly jobs and interact with both criminals and LEO's. This may be my definition of the word, but I don't believe someone that spends most of their time playing a character on duty in a legal faction as a true civilian RP'r.

In summation... if you (the royal you, not directed at anyone specific) are trying to be a legal civilian it is very hard to exist without a gun license.

Most of the time mine was used as a deterrent, a way to deescalate a situation that would've left people injured, or just punish rule breakers so the forums don't have to and I don't have to call an admin (AKA people that ignore fear RP/reasonable demands and run off at gunpoint after you caught them trying to picklock your car). Are any of those reasons legal by law? No, but it saved RP lives!

[Mk2GolfAlex]

Can someone provide a link to the part of the forum where we can submit applications for gun licenses please? 

[Requiem]

37 minutes ago, Mk2GolfAlex said:

Can someone provide a link to the part of the forum where we can submit applications for gun licenses please? 

Thats done on this site: https://gov.eclipse-rp.net/

Not on this forum.