Player Theft Rule Between Criminals

[MrDisciple]

Allowing Night Time Public Theft Between Rival Gang Members!

- My characters consist of both Legal and Illegal. I have hundreds of hours on both Civilian and Criminal RP on my different characters. -

 

Reasoning Behind The Change:
Player theft rules are introduced to stop constant robberies happening on random people in public. This ruins the fun for the person being robbed and discourages them to play as that's not the RP they want to be involved in, which is 100% fair. But for other players, that IS the RP they want. And so, we should allow those players (who want it) to rob each other in public. Basically, If you want to rob people you should also be open to being robbed.

 

Realism:
I believe that committing a RANDOM crime during the day in a popular area or at night in well lit wealthy areas is unrealistic but, I feel when night strikes it should be deemed realistic to rob rivals, this allows further criminal RP to happen outside a drug lab. With hatred for someone, the reward of just getting back at them is a good enough risk.

 

Robbing Rivals In Public:
Robbing a rival gang member outside a drug lab shouldn't be considered random and non-rp, there is clear motive to want to rob them - They're your rivals, they represent the gang that killed your friends and allies. If you engage yourself in a gang you have to be prepared for the IC consequences of being hit by rival gang members anywhere. Its not fun as a civilian to fear being robbed everywhere they go but if your not a civilian and in fact a violent gang member then having that fear is realistic, especially if alone at night. You previously chose to kill people, expect to be hunted by rivals everywhere.
I think rival factions that continuously kill each other in drug labs should be able to rob each other at night in public areas. That is escalation enough and I think both parties would be in agreement OOC to accept RP of robbing each other publicly at night.
(My interpretation of a rival gang isn't necessarily a gang you are at war with, it is a gang that you can't be diplomatic with. For example, they come into your drug lab with intent to fight you.)

 

An Example Of What Is Not Allowed But Should Be:
Goblins steal a shipment off of Irish killing some of their members. 2 days later, no diplomatic solution is applied and both gangs continue to be hostile towards each other. So one night an Irish member comes across a Goblin walking through the city and in retaliation robs them and quickly speeds off. Then the following night, Goblins retaliate and a few of their members rob a few Irish members and cycle continues.

CHANGE: Make public robberies only apply to civilians who are not in rival gangs. Allow rival gangs to rob each other publicly at night without needing DM rights.

 

This change won't effect civilians and non-gang affiliates! It would only allow rivals to rob each other making RP more fun for them. Smaller gangs, groups or small time criminals who don't hold down chop shops and labs should be treated like civilians.

- People LOVE to RP as a criminal and rob people but player theft limits this. If both parties don't mind being robbed in public then I think it should be allowed! -

[Harveyyy]

Do you think robbing people and gang members in the middle of the street or in a public places is realistic? Does it happen IRL? Even if you guys don't like each other, public robberies are unrealistic. You don't see people IRL robbing each other in populated areas. It just doesn't make any sense, correct me if i'm wrong. Also, this rule came in clutch when people were robbing GPSs and Masks from each other. We used to see people with expensive cars and heavy guns robbing people that only have a GPS on them, they do this just for the sake of "committing a robbery". I don't see why we should bring this back. Keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so. And lastly, this comes with high risk/low reward in some situations. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Harvs

[MrDisciple]

@HarvsThanks for commenting. I'll answer your questions.

Yes, I believe public gun robberies are unrealistic. My point was not to argue to be realistic but to argue to have fun and more freedom.

This is a game to have fun roleplay in, and to help with realism public robbery should be limited to night.

As you said, people robbed GPSs and Masks from each other in the past, this I believe should fall under player theft rules. But you could be driving a rental fagio and come across a rival gang member and not be able to steal his sports car that can be chopped at 4am at night.

My point is to slacken the rules where everyone is happy. Allowing more criminal RP on the streets BETWEEN GANGS only. I was under the impression that the issue was civilians and low level criminals would be constantly robbed creating an un-ejoyable experience which was why the rule came into play. My idea of slackening the player theft rule wouldn't change change this for those people.

[Maccy]

+/- 1

Whilst I understand the sentiment, it could quickly get out of control. One thing that public robberies between gangs used to invite was big shootouts in public because of members defending their fellow members. It's also important to look at it from this perspective: Why do criminals find robbing people so fun?

In my experience that fun isn't from the RP, it stems from asset/financial gain. The former I definitely would like to see accommodated, but the latter is a mentality we're trying to avoid. I've only experienced 2 robberies I consider to be 'fun', because it was obvious that the robbers were looking for the RP and not the actual items I had on me, unfortunately the majority of other robberies I've experienced feel very rushed and just teetering on powergaming with how rushed they are simply because the player is after items.

So whilst I agree with relaxing rules, I think instead robberies that are rushed and don't allow for interesting RP should be looked at from a much stricter perspective and if someone is found to be doing multiple robberies with bare minimum RP it should be met with a 'Not here to RP' punishment

[MrDisciple]

6 minutes ago, Maccy said:

+/- 1

Whilst I understand the sentiment, it could quickly get out of control. One thing that public robberies between gangs used to invite was big shootouts in public because of members defending their fellow members. It's also important to look at it from this perspective: Why do criminals find robbing people so fun?

In my experience that fun isn't from the RP, it stems from asset/financial gain. The former I definitely would like to see accommodated, but the latter is a mentality we're trying to avoid. I've only experienced 2 robberies I consider to be 'fun', because it was obvious that the robbers were looking for the RP and not the actual items I had on me, unfortunately the majority of other robberies I've experienced feel very rushed and just teetering on powergaming with how rushed they are simply because the player is after items.

So whilst I agree with relaxing rules, I think instead robberies that are rushed and don't allow for interesting RP should be looked at from a much stricter perspective and if someone is found to be doing multiple robberies with bare minimum RP it should be met with a 'Not here to RP' punishment

I completely agree, relaxing the rules to allow high RP robberies would be an amazing addition. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Relaxing the rules and possible player guide into robberies may improve them on the sever. I also don't agree with pulling up on someone you don't know and putting them under fear-rp getting there gun and driving off in a matter of minuets.

In my opinion, a robbery is about financial gain, that's the purpose of it in real life. Also in real life, a criminal would attempt to rush a robbery as its realistic and gives less time to be caught and less time for the victim to think of any other way but to comply with whats said. Prior RP to robberies, planning and executions with handing out parts and positions should be the thing that needs extending and RP focus on.

[ShawnsBeard]

-1, there's already enough leeway to commit robberies in certain areas or with enough rp reason

[MrDisciple]

1 hour ago, ShawnsBeard said:

in certain

Take gang lores into consideration. Like yourself for example, as a high end faction we can't use chopshops. When it comes down to it, there are few areas you can rob gang rivals. If you attempt to do such things in labs, you shout demands with intention to kill and normally or always results in a giant fight between 2 or more gangs. This is very different to what I'm opposing. Example of what I want and what you feel is non-rp; You see a rival who you witnessed kill your family last week, and roll up on them at 4am walking home.

In real life, mafias and such would drive by kill these members without even stepping out the vehicle. Of-course as this is a game it would make it un-fun for the person being shot which is why DM rules are created. So instead, a robbery would be nice.

Edited March 25, 2021 by MrDisciple

[JaSoN Austin]

+1

[ShawnsBeard]

43 minutes ago, MrDisciple said:

You see a rival who you witnessed kill your family last week, and roll up on them at 4am walking home.

Which is why I mentioned with enough RP reason.  I never said robberies shouldn't be allowed, and it's not like they aren't.  I just think the way it works currently is completely fine.  I've been around the server incrementally for roughly 3.5 years.  The way many robberies were conducted and the reasons for WHY, which is my major point, were very unrealistic in the past.  At points we had some of the largest gangs in the city robbing people who were fishing and mining.

I agree that gang members should be able to rob other gang members, and that is currently how it is.  If you see a rival gang member that has caused you or your family harm in some sort of way, you can rob them in shady areas, as that is sufficient RP reason.  The main problem that comes into play is when gangs begin conducting robberies in places that are highly public.  How often do you see or hear of gang violence at the beach/pier irl?

With your point of mafias conducting a drive-by, that is something that could happen on the server.  In an ic situation, if a rival gang member hurt/killed your family and you witnessed it, you would have ooc DM rights on that player.  A cool way to 'get revenge' icly would be to conduct a drive-by.  Obviously though, it would be advisable to talk verbally to the person, such as saying "Ay gary, this one's for my grandma" before just shooting them, as that is roleplay.

[MrDisciple]

2 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

"Ay gary, this one's for my grandma" before just shooting them, as that is roleplay.

Lol

14 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

Which is why I mentioned with enough RP reason.  I never said robberies shouldn't be allowed, and it's not like they aren't.  I just think the way it works currently is completely fine.

DM rights as you know last 3hours, I mentioned in my example it was 'Last week' not 2 hours ago.

Enough RP reason doesn't give you rights to public robbery, DM rights does but this is a 3hour cap. Anything past that is non-rp which I think is wrong.

6 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

The main problem that comes into play is when gangs begin conducting robberies in places that are highly public.  How often do you see or hear of gang violence at the beach/pier irl?

You think my suggestion is to get rid of player theft rules, your wrong. I never said robberies should be conducted in "highly" public areas, they shouldn't. But every street is treated as public, whether it be night or day its treated the same, whether its in del perro or in strawberry its treated the same. I believe this shouldn't be the case. Player theft Rules should be slackened, there doesn't always have to be one extreme to another. Don't think of it like that.

My main argument is the rules in place counts robberies against enemies to be "random" therefore non-rp although there is a huge amount of prior hostile RP. Robbing someone who killed your friends yesterday at night on a general street corner isn't allowed. Yes also robbing someone at pier isn't allowed and that can stay. I'll reiterate, I'm not suggesting this rule to be removed, just slackened. You get scammed 300k, you see the scammer a couple days later and will receive non-rp for robbing them at night on a street corner away from any landmark. Every street is public, otherwise it wouldn't be a street. Not everywhere is highly public and the places that aren't should allow enemy gangs to rob each other in.

[MrDisciple]

35 minutes ago, ShawnsBeard said:

The way many robberies were conducted and the reasons for WHY, which is my major point, were very unrealistic in the past.  At points we had some of the largest gangs in the city robbing people who were fishing and mining.

Then this should stay banned, and robberies against people who are out to kill you and have previously killed your allies (longer than 3 hours ago) should be allowed in areas not highly public.

You ready my suggestion wrong : (

Edited March 25, 2021 by MrDisciple

[tylxrrr]

On 3/17/2021 at 10:32 AM, Harvs said:

Do you think robbing people and gang members in the middle of the street or in a public places is realistic? Does it happen IRL? Even if you guys don't like each other, public robberies are unrealistic. You don't see people IRL robbing each other in populated areas. It just doesn't make any sense, correct me if i'm wrong. Also, this rule came in clutch when people were robbing GPSs and Masks from each other. We used to see people with expensive cars and heavy guns robbing people that only have a GPS on them, they do this just for the sake of "committing a robbery". I don't see why we should bring this back. Keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so. And lastly, this comes with high risk/low reward in some situations. 

I live in Chicago and honestly, you can get robbed pretty easily downtown, even though it is populated. My university campus is right in downtown Chicago and I haven't been down there due to remote learning, but will be going in the fall. I am trying to figure out how to take precautions with not getting robbed for my laptop or something because it does happen quite often. It even may be armed robberies at times. I've heard students get shot because of an armed robbery downtown.

Now, I am not a criminal IRL, yet I still have to take precaution with not getting robbed as a citizen even in a populated city.

Moving onto Eclipse, there shouldn't be citizens being robbed because it will be abused and people with take things too far as we have seen in the previous years.

But, I think it should be completely fine to be able to rob a rival gang member wherever. It shouldn't be for no reason, but the player theft rule should definitely be loosened up with gang members. It definitely feels like it breaks immersion not being able to rob a rival gang member because of an OOC rule. 

I really think the player theft rule helped a lot for our citizens but it hurt the gang members. Staff should try allowing rival gang members to be exempt from the player theft rule and see how it plays out. If it is abused, then the rule could be reverted.

 

[ShawnsBeard]

2 hours ago, MrDisciple said:

You think my suggestion is to get rid of player theft rules, your wrong. I never said robberies should be conducted in "highly" public areas, they shouldn't. But every street is treated as public, whether it be night or day its treated the same, whether its in del perro or in strawberry its treated the same. I believe this shouldn't be the case. Player theft Rules should be slackened, there doesn't always have to be one extreme to another. Don't think of it like that.

Can you point me to where it states that robberies can't be conducted anywhere?  From my understanding, and also from the actions that have been happening on the server for the past few months without further intervention and clarification by staff, you can conduct robberies on random streets.  The robbery rule was put in place to stop robberies from happening at places like the parking lot, clothes stores, gas station, mines, etc etc.  I only really put a -1 on the suggestion because I feel you are suggesting something that is already around.

I have only ever seen people make nonrp robbery reports that get accepted when they are robbed in the middle of a naturally very highly populated area.  Conducting a robbery in the strawberry neighborhood at night doesn't fall under this distinction.  If someone in a gang that has a conflict with another gang makes a report on that enemy gang's player for robbing them in that scenario, it would be considered ruleplaying.