TheOwl
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Posts posted by TheOwl
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@XeV Two might be better in case a small group gets lazy but I'd like to think the larger gangs would deal with them. But if a large faction is camping a rotating chop it's only because a) it pays better or b) they are starving for conflict.
Like you said a lot of the root problems with crim rp comes down to the economy of things. It's been suggested that prices be lowered but that doesn't necessarily fix the issue of criminal activities not being worth the effort so I'd rather see crim activities take a bump in pay out. If large gangs can hold a chop make taking the parts worth it beyond sustaining their turfs.
As far as conflict goes I believe Ash mentioned somewhere that faction to faction events are coming which to me is necessary for facilitating healthy conflicts. It gives factions an outlet and hopefully provides more meaningful RP interactions between rival factions before they clap each other.
And yes, if criminals are actually able to make money taking an L won't hurt as much and you'll be far more likely to see Crims taking chances for the RP
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Exactly. Rotating chops would be preferable so that it still gives PD/SD a chance to catch them. Otherwise that's just too many chop shops available at any given time of the day.
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45 minutes ago, AnakinB said:
chop shop update: good, Cost of startup: fucking dogshit
Nah, chopping is dead to solo/small clique crims. It's become entirely reliant on whether or not you play in the right time zone as another larger gang that finds it meaningful to do so.
The concept is ace. But you still need static chops for everyone else.
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@Bala Your feedback, as always, is greatly appreciated within the community. It certainly fills some of us in on how certain decisions get made behind the scenes.
That being said I can't help but feel like there is a strong bias against Crim RP.
We as a community are far off from the Council days when Triads used to run laps at the Lake north of Bank to farm legals for fish and 50s.
We are far removed from the days when Zetas would tax small groups into oblivion or wipe them until they disband.
Legals can buy a drink from a store, fuel their car, or enter and exit a 24/7 without being robbed and shaved.
There are rules that ensure proper escalation is needed before robberies can be attempted and they are in place for a good reason.
But crim activities are designed in-game to be a grind. They are to be done consistently. They are not one-off events designed to maximize RP creativity. Stores, banks, chopping and even drugs are meant to be repeated on a loop in order to net a player any substantial reward.
But there is a ridiculous circular logic that exists on the legal side of the community that is continuously blaming crim RP for the state of crim RP.
It goes as follows:
-Crims hit a bank with no interaction with PD or in a typical fashion that ensures they get away with the money.
-LEO's complain there is no RP or that the RP is stale and done only for a win and some quick cash.
- Crims try to hit a bank in a way that is fresh and inventive but lose because either a) you get shit on for RPing over the win or b) because LEO's are over powering.
- Crims complain and LEO'S claim crims just need to play smart.
- Repeat step one. Crims go back to the meta.
- LEO's complain crim rp is shit and need to be more creative.
The payoffs for these scenarios in any fashion do not warrant taking a large risk to provide LEO's with the types of creativity they want to see. That isn't because "crim RP is shit and needs to change".
It's because our activities are shit and nobody's happy unless we're being caught almost immediately for a 5k split between two people.
It's not fair to say that Crims shouldn't finger point when there is a finger pointed at them almost exclusively.
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On 8/16/2022 at 2:15 PM, alexalex303 said:
One of the most amazing side effects of chop shops being rarer is that you can actually leave your vehicle unattended for more than 10 minutes and no one will steal it. I think that's an improvement we should not walk back.
The only way I would support old-style chopping is if it was limited to NPC vehicles only.
Revert chops back to their former state. This was not a side effect of the update. It was the entire purpose.
The legal side of the community hated having their car stolen and LEO's hated that crims could hide and collect the money from the chop. There was a forum post opened about what possible changes could be made to chopping and the only suggestions listened to by staff were from the legal side of the community.
It's not a surprise that the entire criminal activity is complete trash now because of it.
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36 minutes ago, kris giggs said:
A bit of a paradox here. It is realistic for cops to respond in such a large number, and it unrealistic for a street gang or mafia per se to chase someone in a convoy - in a large grouping. The police will always have the upper hand, as it should, as it does in real life, and the reason the rules are so direct and stifling is because people only promote realism when it suits them. The whole argument here is, if we can't have it, they can't either, and if they have it, we should have it as well which is a very bad narrative to spread in these instances.
The rules have progressed immensely and as someone who felt what the rules were like in 2019 (which is what you are pushing for with this topic) on their own skin, we are in a much better place. Someone has to keep the gangs in check so they don't go out of control and turn the server into a TDM - police in an in-character setting, and sadly, the rules, since the community, specifically past (un)official criminal factions had different ideas compared to Faction Services and executive staff I can imagine.
I understand the reasoning and for the most part I do agree. In 2019 you couldn't go to the barber without getting robbed etc.
With respect to that I just think it's worth mentioning that the outcome oocly is the same for both LEO's and Criminals. Players want to be involved and will be less driven to play if they aren't allowed to do so. At the end of the day it is a video game and while yes, we should strive for realism, it's important to remember that having fun is the goal.
As things become more and more restricting for players on the criminal end you will have less of them as a result. As stated above the same is true for LEO's.
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You can't enforce realism for one side of the server and have ooc exceptions for another because (insert reason that doesn't matter).
Criminals want to be involved in chases just as much as cops. If you don't have enough units that's an IC issue.
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+1 Update DOC - It's stale for everyone involved. I understand you need criminals in jail for this faction to serve a purpose. If this faction is indeed that important it needs the attention it deserves.
-1 to nerfing PD/SD. They're supposed to be OP. There are a lot of cops that RP very well. Shout out to the real ones like Bala that will completely ignore your character ducking behind a chip rack and move past you to the backroom. Or Angel and Qubed that will pull you over for doing 89 knowing you just hit stores to make you sweat out a lengthy questioning and then let you drive away. I want these types of players to utilize the tools they have to have fun and provide us with fun too. That being said I understand a lot of the arguments made but I think most of the frustration sets in for crims when they try to air their grievances and are met with closed forum posts or responses like "If YoU CaNt Do ThE TiMe DoNt Do ThE cRiMe". Or when the proficiency of Crim RP is looked down on because most/some in PD/SD are completely ignorant to what the criminal system is like and how that affects the players ability to even want to take part in more thoughtful RP.
Crims do not clock on. When you're making money you are typically not role-playing and when you are role-playing you are most certainly losing money the majority of the time. So whatever money you generate in an hour in fact halves when you consider the amount of time they've spent playing and what they've gained in that time played.
Money should not be a driving force in RP but it is a sense of progression. Getting fines, time spent at DOC, the price of guns and Kevlar to even out situations where fighting the police is the inevitable option... all these things stack up to an enormous amount of money which is actually time to a player. It is not the money they value so much as it is their time.
If you want players to choose vehicles that suit their RP instead of the vehicle that the player oocly actually wants make it more affordable. The player still wants to progress. The super car is better than the garbage vehicle that suits their lore that is only going to inevitably get them caught by policing for trying to evade in it.
If you want crims to take L's on the chin in an effort to provide better RP scenarios for PD/SD then stop making it so punishing to do so.
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@Bala I wholeheartedly agree.
PD/SD should have the advantage and yes the advantage crims have is the fact that PD/SD are reactionary. Meaning that the best chance crims have at evading are simply finding ways to not interact with PD/SD at all. Because like you've stated, once they have their chances of evading decrease drastically.
Now, as for creating inventive RP to evade police youre absolutely right. It is the crims responsibility to be inventive. That being said PD/SD respond with Meta in their own right.
Numerous players try creating new inventive ways to do crime RP. But its easily ruined by unsuspecting/inexperienced LEO players. If thats the case and I lose an AK and body armour to what otherwise would have been good RP then you can kiss that scenario goodbye. I am not grinding out another $110k at an average of $5k per hour to try it again.
You have one group of players that spend far too much time grinding to then have the responsibility of RP thrust upon them despite the fact that they are the only ones with someone to lose.
I mean for Christ's sake... the server can't even abide a few easy bank jobs with no LEO response during their last RP event.
What is each crim really pulling from that? 20 or 30k?
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The real issue is the economy.
Getting busted by PD wouldn't be an issue if crims weren't losing days worth of monotonous grinding every time they have an altercation with PD.
PD/SD should be able to use the fun tools they have at their disposal. I want them to have fun. The issue is that Crims have to spend a ridiculous amount of time doing monotonous grinding to secure the things they need to actually be a criminal in impactful ways.
Bala mentioned in a previous post that players who take risks for the RP get shit on and that is so spot on its insane. When you couple this with the amount of time crims spend doing anything but RP to simply GET money it's really not a wonder why they don't want to lose it in 15 minutes to an over powered faction, regardless of whether theyre jist trying to have fun. That being said if crims are going to take the meta route PD/SD are going to respond in the typical fashion.
The server puts a lot of blame on crims for not placing RP above winning or wanting to be able to kill cops to evade but how can you expect them not to? The deck is stacked against them and they spend a ridiculous amount of time doing things they don't really want to do in order to do the things that they do enjoy.
Just my two cents.
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+1 to the idea of changing how interrogations work.
-1 to the way in which its been proposed. What's given to the dealer would have to be balanced properly. Otherwise you're having cliques dump large amounts of cash into dealers on the small chance that a faction *might* be ordering at the exact moment. I think it'd be more beneficial if once a specific goal has been reached with a dealer the faction that accomplished the interrogation automatically gets a tip off on that factions next shipment. Maybe make the information given a little more ambiguous
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If you have given a gang reasonable suspicion to think that you have witnessed them performing illegal activities you have engaged in criminal RP.
This is why certain areas are labeled as "high crime areas". If you do not want to participate then steer clear.
Once a gang has reasonable suspicion to think you have witnessed them doing something illegal, are trying to chop a stolen vehicle or are trying to sell drugs you are no longer protected by the NCZ rule.
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Everyone is fair game in a lab including coroners.
If me and my fellow gang members are at a lab and a coroner drives in and sees us with heavy weapons then we might hold him up and take his phone battery.
The simple fact that you've witnessed someone doing something illegal gives them more than enough reason to confront you.
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I know action RP is a touchy subject but I think creativity surrounding action RP should be promoted and incentivized more. Everyone wants to do it but the RP falls off over a player's natural reluctance to lose in an improvised situation where they are uncertain on how their opposition will react.
I really think it would be beneficial for Faction Management and Admins to oversee a space (ie. Discord group) where faction leaders can brainstorm creative events surrounding conflict. You can limit it to once a month per faction and PD/SD should be included in this.
For instance; SD needs to move X amount of drugs from Paleto/Sandy Shores to one of the PD precincts in the city. An official gang gets tipped off and decides to risk hitting the convoy.
Or Lost have an opportunity to sell barrels of oil at an inflated price and so obtain X amount of oil to be dropped off at a location. But LSD have been tipped off anonymously and have an opportunity to show up at the drop location and confront them for it.
If PD/SD manage to win this conflict they can be awarded a cash bonus and an award for outstanding bravery...if they live.
The faction that wins the confrontation for the oil can have their payment deposited into the treasury.
The amount of money given can be based purely on the creativity and level of RP shown between factions during the event. I think having an ooc understanding of the situation both factions are heading into would alleviate some of that reluctance and end up being a lot of fun win or lose.
I also think this might help promote healthier relationships on an OOC level amongst all factions across the server. The examples I've given are two that came off the top of my head. Faction leaders working together to create unique action RP events that could meaningfully impact their lore could be far more creative than that.
Just a thought.
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Then the thief gets away
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Maybe lower the Mors timer but chops themselves are fine.
Having your car stolen is unfortunate but it's also a learning experience. Chops are essential to official gangs being able to secure and take turfs and as it was mentioned the vast majority of chops come from lab fights not vehicles that are left unattended.
Once you've learned the chop locations retrieving a vehicle isn't all that hard considering you're alerted the moment a lock pick has failed.
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Great interactions with this group.
Can't wait to see what the future holds for this faction
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The Renewal
Alvin had been trying to lay low for the past four years. Liberty City had been turned upside down in a violent clash between the Families of The Commission and the seeds of discord sewn deeply into the roots of the Triad organisation. Prodding two bullet wounds in his shoulder he recalled ' the incident' for the millionth time in his mind. Tony, Giuseppe and Vinny screaming, his fellow soldiers and foes falling around him in a hail of gun fire as Jimmy Capbra shouted for him to escape. His eyes snapped back open as he started at the unfamiliar face in the mirror. The eyes were too tired, the hair on his head too long and his stubble was unkept. "Gotta play the part." he thought to himself. He got up off the foot of his bed and strolled over to his closet and began getting changed for work. "Another day another dollar..." he grumbled to himself, stumbling as he tried to get his leg into his pants.Alvin left his motel room and got into the front seat of his warrener before turning the ignition over and seeing he was running on empty. Before heading to the lumber yard in Paleto Bay he decided he'd better fill up on gas and grab a continental breakfast from the gas station. After exchanging a few words with the kid behind the counter regarding the expired cream and lack of sugar at the coffee stand, he threw the chubby kid behind the counter some change and walked out the front of the Mirror Park Gas station just as a dark green Kamacho drove past and around the bend. Alvin reversed out of his parking space and edged up to the corner of Bridge Street where he saw four men exit the vehicle and walk into a house on the western side of the block. The lawn was adorned by a beautiful cherry blossom tree which was surrounded by men and women dressed in green... all of them strapped.
Alvin took a sip of his sugarless, black coffee and spit it out of the driver side window, tossing the cheap paper cup along with the rest of its contents. "Sorry Jimmy," he muttered to himself "...its been four years too long and I'm not cut out for this shit." He switched his turn signal from a right to a left and made his way up the block before being approached by a man wearing a shirt wrapped around his face. "Who's this Bozo?" the man asked. Alvin removed his mask, revealing a smirk at the man's all-too-familiar greeting. "Alvin," he replied "I'm looking for work. Something that pays well." The man narrowed his eyes at Alvin before nodding slowly and replying "....Cameron Fade. Nice to meet you Alvin. Chris and Harry are wrapping something up with Jay and Ty real quick. Come wait with me on the roof." Alvin pulled his warrener up to the curb before hopping out and returning nods with a few of the men and women chatting amongst themselves on the lawn of the residence. After being taken through a side gate and being led up a set of stairs attached to the back side of the home, he was told to sit and wait patiently on a white sofa strewn with the petals of the cherry blossom tree that had been blown off in the wind.
A moment passed before four men tread their way up the stairs before stopping beside Cameron. "Who's this Bozo?" the man in the black overcoat asked through a green bandana. "Alvin." replied Cameron. The four men began removing their masks and introduced themselves accordingly as Christopher Bridge, Harry Valentino, Jay Valentino and Ty Shipley. Chris, Jay and Ty pressed Alvin on his past history and he did his best to suppress what he could about the incident four years ago and his ties to Jimmy Capbra but did reveal to them that he was an ex-soldato for the expired Messina Family back in Liberty City. Harry stepped forward and began asking Alvin more philosophical questions about things like 'What the meaning of family is?' and 'How far would you go to save the ones you care about?' "Psych-profiling..." Alvin thought to himself as he sat nervously, cherry blossom petals falling around them. "...this one's smart." The interrogation concluded and command members seemed satisfied with Alvin's answers. He was notified on what would be expected of him in the following weeks and what would need to be done in order to secure himself a spot amongst the small syndicate that had begun to grow.
THREE WEEKS LATER
"Black Kamacho, four occupants entering Sealab." was the callout that came buzzing over Alvin's radio. "I'm nearby, eta 40 seconds." Alvin replied. "Stop at the Bridge and I'll be there in a second to back you up." came a reply from Jack Bridge over Alvin's ear piece. He stopped his Specter at the bridge before noticing his friend Zelijah roll up on his bike. "Two of our boys are dead. I never got a good look at the shooters. Spotted the black Kamacho fleeing the scene over the hills towards Humane though." Alvin relayed Zelijah's information over BSB's frequency and Christopher Bridge told everyone to rally up at the chemical plant. When Alvin pulled around the bend he spotted his boss engaged in a conversation with four well-dressed men in a black Kamacho. The driver seemed to be wincing and favouring the side of his abdomen throughout the conversation. Alvin recognized the man's voice from a few days back in Paleto Bay. He was certain it was one of the numerous men who gunned down one of his brothers on the highway while three BSB members watched on, unable to respond to the murder after they were notified to stand down from High Command. "Yes..." Alvin thought to himself as he rolled by the Kamacho positioning his vehicle tactically. "...that was the one speaking for [redacted] on the beach at the meeting that same day." Alvin was sure of it. The interrogation was getting lengthy and Alvin could feel the tension beginning to grow.
"Say Bananas, if you want me to pull Chris." Carl radioed. With that Alvin could see his brothers around him begin to move in anticipation. "This shit is bananas...: Chris replied to the driver with his finger down on the button of his radio. Immediately Alvin hopped out of the driver seat of his Specter and pulled his .50, dumping rounds through the back window of the fleeing Kamacho as the rest of his brothers rained hell on the vehicle. When the Kamacho finally slowed to a halt the four occupants were dragged from their seats, identified and then disposed of. Jack Bridge checked their weapons and noted the ammo used against their fallen brothers matched the weapony found on the slain men before them. Ty Shipley checked the trunk of the Kamacho and found no sight of the chemicals the men had just claimed they had purchased. With that the Brotherhood cleaned up what they could in a hurry and fled from the area. Alvin went back to his motel, took a hot shower and laid his head down on his pillow. He slept peacefully that night... until he heard the sirens
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Superman's weakness is an incredibly rare rock that is found conveniently enough whenever he needs to be beaten.
And magic.
Point Batman
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Yeah I don't really care if PD or SD chase me down the highway with a tank, sounds like a good time to be honest. But can I hop a waist high fence on my bike please?
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53 minutes ago, Bala said:
Fully disagree. If anything, our force continuum is the pussy version of the real LAPD force matrix so can't really use the realism argument.
Then so are our crims.
The frustration sets in from watching so many players catch NonRP warnings or punishments from this type of behavior only to have it explained away for PD/SD as "IC issues".
It wasn't long ago that PD and SD declared war on crime and began running around with micros...which is fine. But it should be an IC issue when PD/SD are getting smoked at will all the same.
Again, I don't believe restricting PD or SD is the answer here but the frustrations are certainly warranted to some extent.
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I completely understand where you're coming from. But I don't want to see anymore rules implemented that lead to punishments. Just ease up on the Crims.
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1 month of Criminal; with suggestions
in Criminal Suggestions
Posted
+1/-1
I think you've nailed a lot of the reasons why crims don't do criminal activities. The risk vs reward just doesn't make it worth the effort and if you're a small group or solo it's just impossible to get started. Even learning the basics needs to be done AFTER joining a group these days.
That being said the more you play as a criminal the more time you'll start to spend in DOC and the more you will eventually hate being there. (Not DOC faction members fault. They're top tier.) Recently staff increased fines in order to lower the amount of time a player will spend in DOC and implemented a system that allows you to serve your sentence while you're still logged out which is a step in the right direction.
I personally don't want to see the community go back on that but increased fines does compound the risk vs reward issue that criminals face with criminal activities. Giving these activities a slight bump in payout like you mentioned would help offset this.
Gang HQs should be considered heavily guarded though and you should need a good reason to roll in on it looking for a fight. Sometimes gangs have small events or RP scenarios and it's just kind of a dick move to roll up on someone while they're doing these types of activities.
Great thoughts and thank you for adding to the conversation.