Jump to content
Actualbears

Raymond_Edwards [190], John_Robertson [50] | (DM, invalid hostage rights)

Recommended Posts

Player(s) being reported: John Robertson, Raymond Edwards

Date of interaction reported: 7/16/21

Unix time stamp from HUD: 1626481771

Your character name: Clint Masterson
Other player(s) involved: Other PD on scene, Other bank robbers, Marie Dantoni

Specific rule(s) broken:

15. Player Theft, Prison Breakout, and Kidnapping

 

  • Players are allowed to kidnap or to take other players hostage for only these specific reasons:
  • You have to have a roleplay reason to attack the victim in accordance with the DM rules.
  • If you attempt to commit robbery of a property, you are allowed to hold the players within that property until you have finished the robbery. An NPC is not a valid hostage.
  • All included players may not take another hostage for 1 OOC week if police are involved.

How did the player break the rule(s)?  (300 words maximum)

During the bank robbery scene, we began to discuss in PD faction chat that the hostage might be there due to an invalid DM right.  It's been a frequent thing before and after realizing that the hostage was EMS, we had strong suspicions that either Marie was submitting herself as a hostage by consent, or the major one being I believe she was manipulated through PM's during a robbery to be submitted as a hostage for the bank robbery.  Invalid hostage taking has been a growing pain for PD and most of my group within PD that has to stand around for thirty-minutes to an hour bending to the will of the hostage takers due to said invalid DM rights on the hostage or friends using their own mate.

I say this because Marie seemed quite confused in PM's when I contacted her after the robbery to ensure the robbers had proper DM rights and didn't give me a clear answer. Only to further increase my suspicions that John, Raymond and the rest of his crew either persuaded the EMS into doing this or kidnapped her with invalid rights.

Administration were present on scene but all of them were PD in said active situation and none really had the grounds to pause and make sure everything was checked. We also sent in /reports of asking for a non-involved admin to come and doublecheck the whole situation but none came, so we all had to play ball on the scene.

My POV is mostly listening from the rooftop as a sniper, so the best we have to go over is PM's from the robbers (John and company) and the video from the robber POV. John and Raymond are only being name dropped for now due to them seeming to be the ring-leaders of this heist.

 

I was recommended to move this issue to a separate report instead of cluttering up the one with PD being reported to avoid crossing channels and make a clear thread on the issue at hand.

Evidence of rule breach:
 

 

Edited by Actualbears
  • Like 1
  • Confused 5
  • polarcop 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the report should be edited to be made for ME (Koda McDonald) my sole job was getting a hostage and I acted alone as I was in my 8F drafter a 2 door vehicle.

 

I already PM'd you on forums describing how I went about acquiring the hostage, Me (Koda McDonald) was in charge of getting the hostage NO ONE else was involved in it, I acted alone all they did was get the tools and prep ready for the escape route and basically the only thing I did was lie to Marie to get her into a secluded place get in my car and drop her off in front for them to hold hostage. I was the ONLY PERSON involved in getting the hostage so if anyone is at fault for ANY punishment it should be me and me alone. The Royals are not your typical gang crew, we are HERE FOR THE RP and we ENFORCE THE HELL OUT OF IT, our goal is to bring the fun RP back for both sides and make it enjoyable we are not here even for the money from the bank. We just want to have fun and make it enjoyable for everyone, we spend days if not weeks coming up with escape routes and drop off points. It really hurts and demotivates me personally to see PD act this way during this particular heist we planned in advance, like I said LSR - Los Santos Royals are here to RP and have fun doing it, we do not go around "Clapping" or forcing fights or even harassing PD or SD and just treating the server as getting W's and making money, we sit around and plan everything we do to the T to make it fun or cool to see, and high command is SUPER STRICT on the /me's and /do's and using anims during scenarios. We are not a typical gang we strive to bring something new every single time we do a bank job or big heist. My goal with some of the plans is to make PD or SD go "You know that was pretty cool actually". 

 

image.png.bdcfa4a50ba11a525a4da1132b74eabf.png

Edited by undead_vex
Report should be made to me
  • yooo 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

PENDING RESPONSE
―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――

After reviewing this report and the evidence attached to it, we have decided that this report cannot be concluded at this time. We would like to receive a response from the following player(s) to explain their side of the story:

  • [@Raymond_Edwards] - Raymond_Edwards [190] - Please explain your point of view in regard to the reported situation. In addition, we'd like to know the reasoning for using the player (ID 2) as a hostage in this situation. As always, any video or screenshot evidence from your perspective is much appreciated.

  • [@Emilio] - John_Robertson [50] Please explain your point of view in regard to the reported situation. In addition, we'd like to know the reasoning for using the player (ID 2) as a hostage in this situation. As always, any video or screenshot evidence from your perspective is much appreciated.

  • [@JckMckr] - Jack_Mcroy [130] - Please provide your side of the story and any evidence that you may have.

  • [Notified In-game] - Joshua_Reese [175] - Please provide your side of the story and any evidence that you may have.

  • [Notified In-game] - Marie_Dantoni [2] - Please provide your side of the story and any evidence that you may have.

If the requested player(s) do not respond within (24) hours, this report will be concluded based on the evidence that has already been provided, to the best of our ability. 

Regards,
Harveyyy & KimeyBear101

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am the player for Marie Dantoni (ID: 2 in this situation).

I remain very confused on the matter of DM being a thing that is required to take someone hostage in a bank scenario, given that in real life and in the game, you wouldn't necessarily need to be willing to kill the hostage so much as pretend you are, given that in real life and in-game, your only real option is to keep them alive. However, it was adhered to.

There was valid roleplay reasoning involved. There was not at any point any indication on my end that anything was being done that is unfair or against the spirit of the rules (which is to protect players from someone unfairly OOCly deciding to break character and do something that benefits them without a valid IC reasoning or motivation).

Allow me to reiterate:

  • You have to have a roleplay reason to attack the victim in accordance with the DM rules

From the DM rules:

  • Prior interaction should include escalation such as a robbery or a report to the police.

Koda did in fact have a valid reason to take me hostage, and was indeed the only one involved in taking me hostage: I previously reported him to the police, though at the time I didn't have enough evidence or information to get him caught, for being on the pier with an AK. I would be surprised if Koda was unaware of this.

In terms of invalid hostage taking, I confess to being a little confused - as I was before - because I've never been taken hostage or taken someone hostage before. As a result, I've never looked into the rules for that specifically, hence the trouble responding during the scene, and while I was rather hesitant to say anything during the moment when I didn't understand the full rules in place about everything, I had assumed the robbers already knew and had been adhering to. I figured there was a separate set of rules or something, as what is found in the general rules are... lacking, in terms of this scenario in my opinion.

During the RP leading up to the heist, there was a lot of IC lying and manipulation, all very skillfully done, which led to Marie being more compliant than perhaps she otherwise would be up until the moment of the heist. That said, given that she is fully aware that Koda is an armed and dangerous man, who could easily kill her and has the connections to do so at any time regardless of whether she goes along with what he says. Marie met him, as far as I know, twice casually on the pier and once at a gas station. Across those chance meetings she spoke with him for a total of maybe five minutes, though she asked a few people about him. I don't recall the names of basically anyone I've helped as EMS, so I don't personally know if I did or didn't help him as EMS. I barely know Koda and he is far less than an acquaintance, even, but he has quite a reputation as far as I can gather. In terms of connections to Koda or the Royals, there is nothing outside of fear of Koda. Nothing else has happened with a Royal for her to be aware of them. For a while she didn't even know that Koda was part of the Royals and he is the only Royals member she has ever met.

I don't think that A) Koda broke the rules in this situation or B) that Marie was able to consent or truly be willing, regardless of whether she did what she was told, or whether she says she was or not (guilt and shame for being taken hostage at all has prompted her to take the blame for it, as she has with many things).

If someone like Koda, who Marie fears, came up to her out of the blue and told her that she was going to play hostage for them, that she was going to sit there and look scared (which she was legitimately afraid, because all the people there could legitimately kill her if she didn't comply anyway, so there was really no way for her to feel safe during a robbery), and had her in a bank, where people are waving guns at her, I would think that the level of immersion involved would be applauded, rather than looked down upon, so long as it was done correctly.

Regardless of what happened, the robbers were legitimately threatening and controlling her, she was legitimately terrified for her life, and given that they would know right away if she had phoned the police and then kill her, at most IMO Marie would have been guilty of not attempting to contact the police even though there was a clear threat on her life if she did.

Given that this was a premeditated event, with DM rights in place, with police not being an option due to the fact that she would legitimately be killed if she so much as lifted a finger to call them, with no radio, no way to do anything, and a guy that can kill her backed up by a gang of people that could kill her? I'm not sure why the first thought is that she would throw everything she had away to bend over backward for no reward for someone in the Royals, who she has no connections to. Marie (and I) felt at every point as though she was going to be killed if she didn't cooperate, and that she didn't have a choice.

That said - Koda's player has lied in this report, in an attempt to protect me or others, I'm not sure, but likely he wanted to avoid any suspicion being put on me OOCly and leading to Marie losing her EMS job - in that he stated he lured her into a car by claiming his friend was injured. That part was untrue. Koda had previously obtained Marie's number on their first meeting which was quite innocent and lasted for about a minute - since then he has worn a mask on the two other brief meetings they had, and it was long enough in between that I didn't recognize him properly. Regardless, she has no positive feelings towards him, and in fact is deathly afraid of him. Leading up to the heist he contacted her telling her to go to the parking lot. She wasn't sure what for, and stashed her things in her bike and parked it as asked so that she wouldn't have any way to contact anyone, I'm sure, and then he showed up and made her get in his car. She didn't know what was going to happen because of it despite a bit of a feeling as to what might happen - let's be real nobody's that dumb she knew something was up - but when she got in his car she had no idea it would prompt the things it has prompted or that it would lead to her being held at gunpoint. The fact that he had her number made her even more sure that if she went to the police that she would die and that he knew everything about her. Even in real life, going to the police can be deadly, for a multitude of reasons, and she figured her best chances of survival were to comply and just do what they wanted. Inaction may still be wrong, but in this case it saved her life and as we all know fearRP is pretty gosh darn important. She has been debating ICly whether to go to the police to report it and explain what happened, and was on the way to do so despite the consistent and very real threat to her life, hoping that now that it has been a little while that they could protect her from any backlash - not that she can report much of anything other than Koda being involved as she knows very little else and saw very little else, when I code zero'd and noticed this notification.

I'm surprised that anyone thinks that this isn't a legitimate scenario, but if it isn't, then I'm first and foremost sorry for any IC or OOC interactions that have happened since which point towards it being anything other than what it was; and for being ignorant, as I still can't find any resource on what is and isn't allowed in this scenario despite searching for it, other than the vague notes included in the general rules.

 

The bottom line is that I never once, IC or OOC, felt as though Marie was willing to assist them outside of duress. She hates Koda for what he has done to her life, and for the fact that he pulled her into this mess. She's rationalized it the only way she can, and has been taking the blame on her shoulders and claimed that she did it all willingly, but she never once wanted this. She also never once expected or received any benefit for being involved despite it being one of the ways Koda attempted to manipulate her while waiting for the bank heist to begin. I also received no benefit from this, and in fact have lost quite a bit because of it both IC and OOC. I'm surprised that it is only now, after Marie has already lost everything, that questions are being brought up about the validity of the situation to such a degree.

Edited by TrustyasHeck
Added my ingame info
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

- I called Drake asked him if there are any shenanigans for some bank/store.
- Came to behind Eclipse towers, we had a meeting. Then we had a planning phase before we did it. show around the spots, hid the bikes, get dressed etc. (I never did a bank before with hostage)
- We went to the bank, drill -> bla bla bla get the cash.
- Went outside, drove a little bit - got rammed by cops, arrested. 
- Pretty much my job was to be 4th person to grab the cash and be there.
- I wasnt involved in picking a hostage -, but I was surprised to see her as a hostage. ( Jack knows her IC-ly so he was a bit surprised ) 
- I really dont know what to write more 
- Do I have any evidence: not really I rarely turn on recording cause I have drops of fps and lack of space on the disk. 

God bless 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello, John_Robertson [50] here.

Like Koda McDonald said, he was the one who bringed a hostage into this bank situation. I wasn't involved in getting a hostage because I was involved in other multiple tasks I had to do before starting the bank heist. I'm sorry for my lack of explanation, but to be honest I don't know what to write more here.

 

Kind regards,

John Robertson.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TrustyasHeck and @undead_vex after further investigation I would like both of you to explain this "Hostage" situation. Marie mentioned there was "IC lying and Manipulation", but from evidence we have this doesn't seem to be the case. I would like for both of you to be truthful with these questions that I ask. 

  1. Was Marie aware in any way that she was going to become a hostage?

  2. Did Marie consent in any way to "act" like a hostage?
  3. When did you call the police on Koda? Was this on the same day or within 3/4 hours of the bank heist? 
  4. Koda, how did you get Marie involved in becoming a hostage? 

You have 24hr to respond.

Regards,
Harveyyy & KimeyBear101

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By what I know the AK pier thing was the same day (being I believe the same day for me as I am US Central, so like 6 hours behind city time and the event was past midnight in the UK I think) I don't remember exact specifics.  But as Marie said she contacted the police about me and the Ak at the pier to which I found out something was up after being harassed by police for the entirety of the day WAY MORE then normal after that specific event. Cause I do not pull out the Ak often, So seeing as Marie was the only one at the Pier who knew my name, my car, and my gang had to be her who told someone about it.

  1. Did Marie consent in any way to "act" like a hostage? -    I wanna say Yes in a way, but I do not know if she knew I know she snitched, cause without Metagaming I have an event for the future I am tryna work out properly. as for IC lying and manipulation oh yah I lied and manipulated her ICly to get her in a state of maybe trusting me so I can plan the event I had planned. Obviously with this report though I might have to scrap my idea as its just not worth it anymore.

 

  1. Koda, how did you get Marie involved in becoming a hostage? - Texted her and told her to meet me at General Parking

But yah all this was caused by my lack of the Hostage rules, I have seen and studied many different bank attempts and went off those situations instead of the actual hostage rules. If I broke a rule obviously I apologize, and accept whatever comes my way, sorry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Marie never consented to be a hostage except insofar as to do what Koda told her to under the belief that she was dealing with someone who had reasonable ability to do harm to her. She never knew that he had plans to use her as a hostage. She heard him talk shit a lot whenever she did see him and she talks sarcastically a lot but to my knowledge he never actually made plans of that sort where she could know about it and certainly she didn’t enjoy or accept the idea of being a hostage. I don’t remember talking about anything to do with being or consenting to being a hostage except for someone joking with Koda that they were willing to be one. Aside from that, not knowing what Koda planned could just as easily be my shitty memory - I pathologically make journal entries on things IC normally because I cannot remember things otherwise, but I have no notes on this. I don’t think Marie would have talked about it even sarcastically unless she was nervously chattering just to stop someone from talking to her.

 She received a list of demands once Koda brought her and arrived at the meeting spot about how she should behave in the bank and was coached on it; she was brought in to the meet as though she was friendly because they assumed she would comply and she assured them she would not fuck it up because her life was on the line. She was reminded a couple times that she could be killed, that her life was on the line, that she could make money from it (and when that failed, that she would be claimed to be a willing hostage if she wasn’t cooperative). 

She didn’t know that Koda had plans to bring her to the bank until she was in his car with cars and cars full of Royals all around them. As I said, it seemed like something was up, but I had no way of knowing what was coming as she was given very little except the requirement to get in his car until she was already helpless to get away. 

Marie would never in a million years have willingly said yes to being an actual or false hostage. I never once wanted her to be a willing hostage or a hostage at all. I didn’t want her involved period and I would have liked to have just said no, but I couldn’t afaik. The only real reason she was involved otherwise was because her judgement was flawed following incredibly deep grief hitting very hard, and she was underestimating what a scary man might do to her or use her for. A part of her figured the worst that could happen was that she would be killed or attacked. Neither of us ever thought that it would be what it ended up being - neither of us thought that she would end up being brought to a bank and having her life ruined because someone held her hostage. 

She rationalized it when she got there as “doing something for Jack” because he was there, she wanted to curry favour with him as she felt it would get him to stop upsetting her all the time, And because it was the only way that she could live with herself being involved and used in such a way.

She was terrified and numb. She would honestly rather have died in that bank, and still would rather have died, despite what little happiness she has found since and what little she has managed to find of legal work since (freelancing and fishing). Marie is not a criminal or an accessory by choice. She would rather stop existing than fail her family even further with continued accusations of having broken the law. She hasn’t made any moves to break laws since despite an initial terrified line of questioning about it to friends, having been convinced by others that she had no choice but to go illegal following the hard accusations aimed at her purely for being EMS (not for any other reason mind, even the person making this report said it was only because Marie was an EMS worker) and the loss of all support and job opportunities immediately following the robbery even before this report was opened.

Marie has managed to stay legal. Her only charge to date is a single reckless operation. She has no intention of going to the dark side. She says a lot of things and is an unreliable narrator and spreads shit that isn’t true in regards to herself sometimes. That said, she would never have gotten in that car if she or I knew for a fact that she would be brought to a bank, even if she also somehow knew she would get away with it. It is not in her nature to break the laws. It is not in mine to knowingly break rules.

The emotion in my voice as I was roleplaying her was genuine. I was terrified she was about to die despite how stupid a move it might be for the thieves. She was terrified she was about to die because obviously, she had guns in her face. Sure, some of it was influenced by Koda telling her how to behave, but she wasn’t acting.

I have very little to say about the rest, as I don’t typically think to include dates in my journal entries and I am unsure as to what happened when. I will trust that Koda’s player has remembered it accurately as they are far more likely than I am to do so. If there is no filed paperwork for the report it is likely for the same reason that Marie’s mugshot and fingerprints had to be taken twice as they weren’t filed and her initial questioning wasn’t filed to my knowledge.

I understand as there is little conclusive evidence if nobody ever believes her/me on this but Marie just isn’t a criminal and wouldn’t be unless she is forced to be. I am confused at the idea that duress doesn’t exist without a gun actively pointed to one’s head (as seems to be the case in some people’s minds lately). I am confused that Marie is appearing to be a willing participant, but I do understand some IC moments have made that hard to see and that there may be things I simply don’t recall that make this somehow less clear or less likely. I can say with certainty that if I was asked in IC or OOC whether I Or Marie wanted to be a hostage the answer would have been a resounding no. I can see that I will need to be focusing my next paycheck towards trying to upgrade my pc enough to record and play, or else I will be unable to absolve myself of doubt. Even if I have no intention of ever being in situations like this the lack of footage is clearly an issue.

Edited by TrustyasHeck
Fixed a grammar mistake
Link to comment
Share on other sites

REPORT ACCEPTED
―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――

 

After reviewing this report and evidence attached to it, we've decided to accept this report and issue the punishments to the following player(s):

Marie_Dantoni |  ID 2 - Non-rp - Offense #1 - This player will receive a Non-rp punishment for consenting to being a part of a hostage situation and placing their character in danger, with no valid DM rights to do so. 

From the evidence provided, it can clearly be seen that you consented to being taken hostage. You state, She never knew that he had plans to use her as a hostage"

This can be proven to be wrong as from further investigation, it was revealed you were texting Koda_McDonald and he asked "Ima keep you posted, but if you are available I might need you and your "Acting" Skills for something". You respond to this text by saying "Sounds fun! Let me know when so I can head to the parking lot a bit in advance and just walk around a little bit all innocent like.". Koda then went on to say "<3 Dope ill hit you up to come and "Kidnap" you". From this evidence alone, it can show that you consented to "Act" the part for them and place yourself in a dangerous situation. Also, there is further evidence to show that you were in on the situation due to this video: https://streamable.com/qfcww2 . In here, you can be seen confessing to a friend you took part and helped with the hostage situation and knew fully well of what you were being involved in. 

To be taken hostage, you must have DM rights on the player. You mentioned that Koda_Mcdonald was questioned by police because you called them. However, looking into this further, there was no evidence to show that you called the police that day or within set time for DM rights to valid. If a situation escalated, and you obtained DM rights, you would have 4 hours from that point to take advantage of those DM rights. Let this be a learning curve, in the future you must not give consent to hostage situation if they have no valid DM rights.  

Koda_Mcdonald | Non-rp - Offense #1 - This player will receive a Non-rp punishment for taking a hostage without valid DM rights.

As shown above, you asked permission of Marie to take her “hostage” and to “act” in the situation. If you had DM rights and were tricking her to come to a location to take her hostage, then this would have been okay to follow. However, you asked for her consent and with no valid DM, this is no allowed. You mentioned you were questioned by the police and since Marie was the only person on the pier who knew you, you assumed it was here. This would not be a valid DM as you didn't see any evidence of Marie calling the police, and if you have an AK on your back it could be possible another player called. As stated above, in future situations please ensure you have valid DM reason to take someone hostage. 

Raymond_Edwards | ID 190 - Non-rp - Offense #2 - This player will receive a Non-rp punishment for taking a hostage without valid DM rights.

As shown from the evidence, you had no reason to hold a gun to Marie_Dantoni and use her as a hostage. It was made clear that Koda provided a random person who you and others had no prior rp to possible take her. As stated above, in future situations please ensure you have valid DM reason to take someone hostage. 

John_Robertson ID 50 Non-rp - Offense #3 - This player will receive a Non-rp punishment for taking a hostage without valid DM rights.

As shown from the evidence, you had no reason to hold a gun to Marie_Dantoni and use her as a hostage. It was made clear that Koda provided a random person who you and others had no prior rp to possible take her. As stated above, in future situations please ensure you have valid DM reason to take someone hostage. 

To all involved in this report.

Please ensure that you have DM rights on a player before you attempt to take them hostage. Their needs to be a build up of rp or escalation, instead take a player as it's convenient or might give your characters an advantage. 

If you have received a punishment that you disagree with, feel free to file a punishment appeal following the punishment appeal guidelines and format. If the reporting party suffered a loss greater than $25,000 in value, feel free to file a refund request following the refund request guidelines and format. 

Regards,

Sr. Support Harveyy

Moderator  KimeyBear101

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and our Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.