ID 6 (fear rp)

[LC16]

Required Report Format
Player(s) being reported: ID 6, Philip Sanchez and Samuel Martin (this is the only ID and names I can remember but there were a bunch of more people involved, such as PD and Swat)
Date of interaction reported: 07/06/2021
Unix time stamp from HUD: 1623098053

Your character name: John_Polar
Other player(s) involved: Dimitri Mandojev, Kevin Wadson and Jero Miller

Specific rule(s) broken:
13. Fear Roleplay (FRP)

-Fear RP is showing appropriate care and concern to preserve your character's safety and life.
-If a player's life is in direct danger they must RP adequate fear and comply with demands.

How did the player break the rule(s)?  (300 words maximum)
So me and fellow russians were doing a bank robbery with a hostage for good rp, Dimitri tried to negotiate with PD clearly showing a threat to the hostage's life, they didn't comply with even a single reasonable demand not showing minimal care for the hostage's life, this is only agravated when they storm the bank while dimitri is pointing at the hostage and even shoot the hostage. I think this is terrible RP from the whole department and sincerely I am very discouraged to RP something like this again, we did this in good faith to RP with PD and now im very discouraged to do anything like it again

Evidence of rule breach:
I dont have any POV of this since my computer is a potato, but since mrsilky was in the situation he probably has POV as well as all other officers since I asked them multiple times to save POV. These are only 2 times I did but I asked more times than this.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by LC16

[MrSilky]

Pending review from senior staff as staff members are involved.

While we wait for senior review, could the following players please provide their side to the story and any potential POVs they may have.

• Torsten_Church (336)
• George_Vern (106)
• Gary_Taylor (131) 
• Sebastian_Papadakis (83)

I will also provide my POV shortly which shows the reported incident from a 3rd person perspective as I was not directly involved.

- MrSilky

[George Vern]

Hi! George Vern here, unfortunately I never saw you asking us to save POV, so unfortunately I don't have it. Scene was a bit hectic and I must have missed it

[MrSilky]

Hey, so here's my POV below:

For a bit of context since the clip is short, there was about 45 minutes of failed negotiations prior to this. I was on their frequency listening in as was another detective and they began getting more hostile, even discharging their weapon at one point as a threat. As such, the SWAT team escalated their response to match the situation presented to them. ICly, the decision was made by the SWAT team that the risk to life of the hostage is greater by leaving him with the hostiles than to breach and gain control. I'm not too sure what happened following the breach as my attention was drawn to the bikes fleeing but the hostage was secured with a minor wound to the shoulder.

https://streamable.com/8hom05

I have about 4 minutes prior to this and 6 minutes after if required, I just clipped it for convenience. 

- MrSilky

EDIT: Just realised my edited video cuts out the RP from @Dimja, so here is a screenshot of what his character was doing at the time of the breach:

[GR_Seb]

Hello, I am Sebastian Papadakis. Although I do not have a saved point of view as Dimitri asked for POV around 20 minutes after the actual breach, he requested from me to tell the guy that shot you to save POV which.. I had no knowledge over who it was or who are you in comparison of those involved, I did ask for POV's to be saved. I hope we get sufficient footage from other replies.

I'd like to start with my side of the story on an OOC topic and then on my IC topic.

My general thoughts are that I really like Dimitri's roleplay and the group you guys represent. It's fun and nice to interract to. To be honest from my perspective, the way you guys perform bank robberries is repeated.  The majority of your attempts fail and the plan is always the same. The plan is so similar every time, that our characters have knowledge of your exact actions, one step ahead. You are going to have 4-5 people, 1 hostage that is your affiliate, two scouts. You will lie about how many people you have inside, you will demand your group to leave first while four (one) stays back with the hostage. We know that if we try to breach, you will use the fact that the doors are visible as shut in our screens, you will put the hostage directly at the inner door of the vault so you can get covered, we will extract the hostage ALIVE, you will end up in prison, you will do the same thing again.


Now, for your report. You report us for fearing roleplay, although our trained negotiators gave you multiple choices. From free passage that can lead into a chase, to assurange that the blockades will be removed.  In general, We are not going to comply with demands which, won't stop you guys from threating the hostage. "Aka, let my four friends go, four will stay back".  During the specific bank robberry,  you had four people on their bikes, unarmed.  We had eight officers, armed with automatics and five officers armed with tasers/pistols. Those men aimed directly at you, on your bikes.  You turned on the engine, did not fear for your lifes, tried to evade, got shot. If you notice, here's me shooting at your tires [if that's you] 
Here is me, shooting the tires only. 


The aftermath of the situation was that your group got arrested. The hostage got rescued and arrested "as he was affiliated".  My character followed precise orders, had full knowledge of his actions and did anything possible to stop a threat.  This was my input and thank you for reviewing this. I am more than happy to provide more detailed information if the administrator requests me to do so.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Papadakis

[LC16__]

Hey!!!

Just wanted to say on the IC topic, we really thought you were gonna shoot us, we didnt comply to the negotiators plan because of that, but if i had known that we were gonna do a chase instead of you guys sniping us of our bikes I wouldve definetely suggested Dimitri to take your offer, by the way the hostage wasn't afiliated with us Haha, Dimitri picked him up from somewhere implying that we were gonna pay him (lie). He really was in danger since @Dimja's pistol was loaded and he wasnt affiliated with us in any way. By the way, the engine of my bike was already on, thing is my game froze because my PC is a potato, and since there were a bunch of people in 1 place my computer just couldnt handle it, when it unfroze I was met with complete caos so I just tried to make a run for it.

Edited June 7, 2021 by LC16__

[Gaz.]

Gary Taylor (ID 131) here. I have my POV saved which is 2 minutes 30 seconds long, but it does contain staff chat so I will send it to the staff who takes this report.

In terms of the negotiations being made, I was standing on the side lines with no control of them, waiting to be given orders of what to do. The negotiations weren't working out in either sides favour, with the bank robbers wanting to let either 1, or 3 of their members out (Their plans changed a couple of times.) while keeping at least one person with the hostage to ensure that we don't pursue them as they leave. As per PDs IC procedures, our negotiator made it clear that we were not going to let them keep one person with the hostage as that would be too risky for the hostages safety. Our negotiator made an offer to open a way of passage for all 4 of them to leave at once and leave the hostage behind in the bank, but the robbers denied that offer and continued to threaten the hostage and insist on their plan. I would like to add that while PD has to maintain Fear RP for the hostage in a situation like this, the hostage takers should too. It is in their best interest to keep the hostage alive and well because the hostage is their only guarantee of safety from us. Once that hostage is killed, then PD will open fire on them, and so they should fear for their safety if they kill the hostage when surrounded and outnumbered.

After a lot of back and forth, 3 of the robbers exited the bank (as can be seen in the video), and got on their bikes. They were boxed in by barricades and so they did not want to leave the area yet. I was focused on one of the individuals on the bike, and so my attention was not on the interior of the bank anymore. I don't know what caused the shots to be fired inside the bank so I can't speak on those actions. I checked what was happening and then reverted my attention back to the man on the bike. He (ID 318) then broke Fear RP and drove away with 3 M4's aimed at him and ran over a fellow Officer so I opened fire on him. 

That's all I have to say on this situation.

 

[LC16__]

I am ID 318, since my game froze ( as said in the reply) I had no idea what was happening and just made a run for it (I ran the officer over by accident he went in my way). And again PD didn't care for 1 second about the hostage's life complying to 0 of Dimitri's reasonable demands, he told me on discord he would've killed the hostage 6 times before you guys arrested our friend. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by LC16__

[Dimja]

As I’ve been named multiple times in this report, I would like to share my part to clarify it more.

-The hostage was in no way or shape affiliated with us. That there was a pack of cash found in his car was coincidence. It was impossible that cash was from the bank robbery itself.

-This is maybe the second hostage bank robbery within 4 months, so its not really repeated on our side.

The negotiator came with one possible outcome and that outcome only. I spend 45 minutes negotiation but all that he said was that we take his deal or get shot.  I felt like the hostages safety was not even a priority. I’ve tried different deals. I offered staying behind, giving up my license or any deal that would be different from the negotiators perfect plan. None really cared about what we said.

I gave reasonable simple demands such as: remove the barricades on the east side, remove the snipers or let the biker leave with the bag. This all with a loaded gun to the hostages neck. None of these demands were met in the slightest. Simple said, they were blatantly ignored. 

The swat rushed the bank (atleast it looked like it) on which I responded by opening fire on one. I used the hostage as meatshield, but the PD just riddled him with bullets. I kept shouting that I had a hostage, but no one seemed to care about his life and they all kept rushing. Once I shot my last bullet in the officer, I put away my gun and raised my hands, upon I two seconds later get blasted with a shotgun in my face.

-The hostages life was far from safe. Every single demand that was powered by a hostage threat was ignored and it ended up with having the hostage heavily wounded. 
 

90% of the time, I do have a good time RP’ing with PD. People that know me and my criminal record, know that I can take a loss and really wont make a problem out of every 5+ hour jailtime. This is one of the rare occasions were I felt really shit and demotivated as result of the RP and not necessarily the outcome. I felt like the need to win was really high on the reported parties end.

Kind regards,

Dimitri

[MrChurchy25]

Alright to start with I only have literally the last few bits of the initiation into the bank. The save POV Request was not given until way after the incident took place and I even after the actual shooting started. It was given at MD well after the scene was open. 

So backstory for everyone. PD has been dealing with the exact same bank robbery strategy for well over two months now and was something that a guy named joey figliani started. Did it several times and never ever gang has been carbon copying it. To @Dimja if this is only the second time you guys have either done bank robberies or this strat then fair enough. But we have been dealing with it multiple times a day for months. Always one hostage who 80% of the time has been in on the job either IC or OOC. One or multiple group leave with money with set amount of time. Then last man gives himself up and serves years upon years in jail for the betterment of the brotherhood. i am NOT SAYING that your guys hostage was fake. Honestly surprised no ones used this tactic in the real world...

On our side we have tried to increase the RP aspect of things especially considering we are dealing with the exact same scenario day after day after day. Same M/O usually same crews, same hostages. Can you really blame us for trying different methods? 

CONTEXT  - So prior to your bank robbery @Dimja and @LC16__ We just got finished at a bank robbery at Pink Cage with EXACTLY the same set up. Difference is their hostage was fake.  We were all geared and our response time to life invader bank was so quick cause we literally just concluded the EXACT same style of bank robbery up the road. We hadn't even finished the scene before we went to your bank robbery to deal with the exact same situation. Clank AKA Carver just got done negotiating with the other bank for about 30 mins I believe and then rolled onto your bank robbery to then again negotiate for 45 mins plus before anything happened. 

Before I make the next few statements let me get the disclaimer out way to stop any ooc feelings on this. @Dimja I have nothing but respect for you and in general I really like Russians and their RP. So please don't take the following as me bashing or pointing blame etc.

 

To address both Dima and the reporters posts.

Our focus is always on hostage safety. Literally the one thing that stops us rolling into the bank. Negotiations weren't going anywhere and the hostage was constantly being threatened. At one point I believe Dima shot his gun into the ceiling as a warning shot. In your eyes I can see that as a means to show you are serious and not playing around. But from our side and a law enforcement side that's called escalation and its forces us to make a call and act. The pd negotiator even said that the shot means he had to turn things over to SWAT. But STILL after that we tried to organize a peacefully resolution.  

In Real Life hostage negotiators always try for no bloodshed. But if hostages takers continue to threaten the hostage and then show signs of escalating or volatile they will send tactical teams in as a last resort. 

You guys stated you thought we were just going to shoot you and kill you. That was not our intention at all. We were listening in on your freq and several people were stating they were gonna turn it into a shootout and go out shooting. Again that is escalation we have to react and role play accordingly to.

 

My point of view and character

After the full stalemate and break down of communications, multiple threats to hostage life, firing a gun near the hostage and then stating you wanted to shoot your way out we had to get ready for a tactical plan. Three of the Russians exited the bank and went to their bikes, and the hostage was still head at gunpoint. So we had to move in as we were ordered to.

You state that we stormed the bank.... we didn't. My bodycam doesn't go that far back but if you look at Papadakis SS he posted we walked into the bank with guns aimed and took no shots. After you fired a shot at us we then pushed and a second hostage situation developed inside.  You state that we only wanted to kill you and the hostage. But I personally kept yelling to drop the gun and come peacefully, even starting another stand off again to reach a peaceful resolution. It got to a point where we were standing in front of hostage taker surrounding them. Not engaging and not shooting repeatedly telling the hostage taker to drop the gun. The hostage taker then fires a shot and we react in kind and push hard once the hostage is out of the line of fire. As seen in footage below. As for dealing with these types of scenes and situations. The players involved and their characters practice these scenarios almost weekly. We spend alot of time training close proximity and near hostage shootings. 

https://streamable.com/uwe1b1

To conclude for the most part I thought this was a positive roleplay experience with good roleplay throughout. Compared to the other dozes if not hundreds of bank robberies with the exact same strategy at least there was some negotiation attempts. I have no hard feelings for the reporting party, Russians and especially @Dimja and hold nothing personally. I get your frustrations and hope its sheds some light into our side of it too.  Also glad this hasn't turned into either side just bashing each other.

 

Church 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by MrChurchy25

[LC16__]

I still dont think this explains why you guys didn't care for 1 second about the hostage's life, never complying to a single demand Dima gave you, even if it was as simple as removing barricades. Besides, you guys never showed interest in his life, you just cared about your protocols and never about one of the most basic rules in the server, just because you have an IC protocol that you have to follow, doesn't mean that it automatically gives you the right to break the rules, this would be the same thing as creating a gang and then adding a rule that states that everyone that leaves my gang, only leaves with a bullet in their head, its an IC rule that doesn't give me automatically DM rights to kill everyone who leaves. Same thing goes for this, you have a protocol that states that you have to save the hostage and aprehend the suspects, but that doesn't give you the right to not comply to any of our demands because it will give you a disadvanatge, especcially when we are giving a direct threat to the hostage's life.

Edited June 9, 2021 by LC16__

[Clank]

Hello, I was the negotiator for this situation (Cyrus Carver).

 

The entire time my main priority was the hostages safety. I offered them all safe passage as long as they all leave together and I even offered them any vehicle they want to choose. I gave them a chance to split it any direction they wanted and I offered them to clear the scene barricades from both sides at one point as well.

 

The problem was that they were ADAMANT and I mean ADAMANT about having people stay behind with the hostage at gunpoint. I cannot in good faith allow this to happen as I have NO way to trust that they will not just finish off the hostage. No single officer in their right mind would allow the suspects to leave while still having an active threat on the hostage. I gave them plenty of other options and I told them that as long as they all leave at once they could walk. They refused multiple times and I let them have almost an hour to think about it. 

 

Also, Here's the POV. I saved this because the bikers drove off at gunpoint.

https://streamable.com/wnw0h8

[Aldarine]

Thank you kindly for your patience as we reviewed this report. Following significant review of evidence and provided statements as well as extended conversation regarding the report, we will be denying this report.

Upon reviewing this report we noted there was a significant lack of evidence and context from all sides in regards to this situation. As it stands right now, there is simply a back and forth he said - she said situation where both parties are making conflicting statements and there is very little to review to track the overall situation. Without this evidence showing the negotiation attempts as well as the initial law enforcement entry into the bank, there is simply not enough to proceed forward with this report or state right/wrongdoing on either party side.

Best Regards,

Head Administrator @Dqniel & Administrator Aldarine