PowerGaming and Non RP- (Multiple SD) Clay_Wilson [ID 181], Seth_Cincaid [ID 209], Jay_Willson [ID 198], Harvey_Michelson [ID 162], Axel_Sutherland [ID 86]

[lewxs]

Player(s) being reported:  ID 181, 209, 198, 162, 86
Date of interaction reported: 25/MAY/2021
Unix time stamp from HUD: 1621980857

Your character name: Lewis Kipp
Other player(s) involved: Paddy Walsh, Steven Dawson, Brette Macleod, Ariana Grey

Specific rule(s) broken:

9. Non-Roleplay (NRP)

• Actions that are unrealistic or promote poor quality roleplay are considered as non-roleplay.

 

10. Powergaming (PG)

• Powergaming is playing unfairly through not allowing other players a chance to roleplay responses and their own actions, unrealistic actions, or non-factual statements in /do.

 

How did the player break the rule(s)?  (300 words maximum)

Myself and Paddy Walsh (ID 345) conducted a store robbery using a hostage being Ariana Grey (ID 115). We negotiated with an officer for the best part of 10 minutes and agreed on a free pass to be given as long as the hostage's life was spared. We specifically told them to have all guns lowered when leaving and asked for nobody to follow for 20 seconds after departure from the scene. Upon leaving the store with the hostage as seen in the evidence provided below. We handed over the hostage and entered the parked vehicle only to be shot at almost instantly. Once we were in the car there was no immediate threat to life and they released fire in firing range of civilians being Steven Dawson (ID 100) and Brette Mcleod (289). This in my opinion is what breaks the rules as it is extremely unrealistic opening fire on us when we were causing no threat to life and them putting others in serious danger. Steven Dawson was in fact shot and injured by one of the stray bullets and offered us his POV shown below. In a real life situation this is considered Reckless Public Endangerment. After having our tyres shot out we travelled a good distance on the highway before being outrageously fired at by ID 86. He fired at us on a busy highway where buses and pedestrians could have been passing. and potentially hurt or even killed.

Evidence of rule breach: https://streamable.com/jrzg6j  (both clips from Paddy Walsh and Steven Dawson have been merged to show a better POV of the situation)

This is my first forum report and I hate having to submit it but it ruined the rp for me and others and has left me with 50k in fines that I could have potentially avoided.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Sensei1
spelling mistake on names.

[Joshc7531]

Hi Paddy Walsh here,

This experience has left me feeling deflated. I feel like the whole experience was ruined down to the sheer fact that the officers showed no value for our characters lives or the lives of the civilians. I in no way expected for Paddy and Lewis to fully get away. However, what I did expect was a fun RP opportunity which could have resulted in a long pursuit etc.

As seen in the clip above the officers opened fire and completely sprayed bullets in the direction that we were travelling. Also in that direction were 3 civilians. One of which got hit in the crossfire. I would also like to point out that the hostage was still in the middle of the road (Standing beside 209), and was in fact not 'secure'. So had we returned fire there would have been a possibility of the hostage getting hit. The shooting was also highly unnecessary as there was multiple spike strips placed down to pop our tyres.

Every officers main goal is to preserve life. In this incident it seemed like the main goal was to shoot us down and then just BLS us and lock us up, which in my opinion is poor quality RP.

As seen towards the end of the clip we had already had our tyres popped and we were going quite fast and an officer decided to open fire. Then as you can see in a screenshot I have added we were still being fired at while in close proximity to a civilian car. I dont think it would be reasonable for any officer to take that shot.

For the reasons that I mentioned above I feel as though the way the SD handled this situation was highly unrealistic and removed any fun or realism and made the RP quite poor.

 

Crazyyy - Google Chrome (gyazo.com)

Edited May 26, 2021 by Joshc7531

[Harveyyy]

Pending review by Senior Staff, as 2 of the reported players are staff members, including me. 

[Nixon88]

As  a bi standard to this situation, i was the individual in the car that go hit while in  a parking space (Steven Dawson)(100). when i witnessed this event unfold i was never directed away or informed of any danger. I was parked up with a passenger (Brett Macleod)(289) waitin for a friend when out of nowhere a hail of high calibre bullets hit me and my car.

I feel this whole situation was reckless from SD and highly irresponsible, disregfarding public safety in  ahighly populated area regardless of time. They showed poor public control and muzzle discipline.Let the spike strip do the work and not shoot 3 carbines at tires, the officers ended up hitting my car with 5-6 carbine rounds and myself, i required medical assistance after (painkillers and water) but didnt get any help for the damage done to my vehicle (150 damage). From the time i sat and watched the robbery the criminals never fired a weapon or showed any signs of aggression towars SD, the hostage or shop owner.

The SD had the are secured with bikes, barriers, spike strips and units ready for a persuit. So why not let the scene rollout? let the spike do there job and let the persuit leave a public populated area?

The tires we  popped, a simple pit manuver on the highway could have ended the persuit much better and in a safer way. The cops are more concerned about shooting and BLS'ing than actually role playing robberies in my experience and is quite shit if im honest. Its too one dimensional.

Its about the role play experience and not about being competetive and winning.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Nixon88

[Timmaayy]

Pending review from myself.

[Timmaayy]

Hello, before I review this report please can you provide un-edited footage @Sensei1

[lewxs]

Hi @Timmaayy, I don't have POV saved. @Joshc7531 @Nixon88 have their pov. Ariana Grey (hostage) also has pov.

[Timmaayy]

@Joshc7531, @Nixon88 and @Celine Please can you all provide un-edited POV.

[Nixon88]

https://streamable.com/yvz7k0

[Joshc7531]

Hello!

Unfortunately I have my shadow play set to 5 mins so I didn't manage to catch from start to finish. However here is the full 5 mins (with a bit of it sped up). 

Hopefully this help.

 

 

[Celine]

Hi!

ID 115 here, Ariana Grey. This is my POV from the situation. Let me know if anything else is needed. 

POV

[Timmaayy]

PLAYER REPORT PENDING RESPONSES

Thank you for your patience while this report is under review. 

After reviewing this report and the evidence attached to it, I have decided that this report cannot be concluded at this time. The following players will be required to provide their side of the story from this situation within the next twenty-four (24) hours:

Clay_Wilson | ID 181 @freshprinceIE - Please can you provide your POV, and explain your involvement during this situation.

Seth_Cincaid | ID 209 @Avemir - Please can you provide your POV, and explain your involvement during this situation.

Jay_Willson | ID 198 - Please can you provide your POV, and explain your involvement during this situation.

Harvey_Michelson | ID 162 @Harveyyy - Please can you provide your POV, and explain your involvement during this situation.

Axel_Sutherland | ID 86 - Please can you provide your POV, and explain your involvement during this situation.

@Joshc7531 - Please provide a non-edited version of you POV, with no sped up parts.

If the players above fail to respond to this report within the next twenty-four (24) hours, this report will be concluded based on the evidence that has already been provided, to the best of our ability. 

Regards,
Timmaayy

[freshprinceIE]

Hello, Clay_Wilson here. Firstly, thanks @Timmaayy for the tag and taking care of this report. 

There was a panic call made by Harvey but he needed a cough drop, then the store alarm went off. I made my way to the Paleto store and pushed up to the door with Harvey. Inside was 3-4 people who seemed to be together. I'm unsure if ID 115 was with them, or if she was a real hostage. From what I can tell they just kidnapped their friend midway through the robbery with no DM rights.

Eventually they let us know that they have a hostage, and we allow Seth to take over negotiations. Whilst he's doing that I alternate between keeping aim at the door and doing some scene management where I set up some spike traps. Eventually they leave the store and the "hostage" goes towards Seth. Two get into the car and I wait a few seconds for the hostage to be safe before I shoot and take one tyre. IIRC, I stop shooting at this point and the video evidence seems to support this. I am 95% certain that I stopped shooting. I get into my car and pursue the vehicle. Once they got in the car, they had no leverage and I had an RP reason to take tyres. I believe that I did not shoot any person until the final scenario where he drew a gun at us.

The car is driving at high speeds with 1 tyre, to the point that my cruiser cannot catch up at first. We assume in TAC that their tyres are not gone, so Axel decides to take some out from the road. Looking at their video evidence they did seem to have just one tyre, so I'm unsure how they were driving like this. Again, from their footage they are going (in parts) in excess of 210km/hr. Our cruiser with 4 tyres wouldn't even be able to have this level of acceleration.

Eventually they get out and split. One of them (Lewis) decided to pull his gun out with me and Harvey behind him, both with heavies. He gets injured and I proceed to BLS him and finish the RP scenario.

I have no video evidence as I did not know that a report was being made, which is a shame as I transported both to DOC and we had a good time IC as we always do. I placed some charges on Lewis, but I did not place some of the smaller charges of crimes that he also commited such as resisting arrest, face concealment and so on. We RP'd through the medical and arrest RP and I thought that we had a positive RP experience.

Edited May 27, 2021 by freshprinceIE

[lewxs]

All cops were asked to save pov. I know that some officers involved would not have been in the proximity to be able to see the /b for save pov. However, 209 who led the whole rp acknowledged it, replied and therefor should have informed ALL other officers to save their pov.

[Avemir]

Hello Seth Cincaid (209) here.

as stated by Clay above, we responded to a Backup call made by Harvey about a Store Robbery. As I was the first SED unit to arrive on scene, I took over negotiations with the hostiles while leaving the units arround me the time to set up scene management and providing them with as much information as possible.

The hostage takers and I agreed to them handing over the hostage for a clear passage. The hostage was exchanged and no shots were fired until she was safe behind me (unfortunately my clip didnt catch my audio, however, you can hear it in Arianas footage that I say "get behind me"), with units first asking if the hostage is okay before taking any shots - including myself.

I don't think this is NRP or PG in any way, shape or form. YOU put yourself in a position were we had to see you as an active threat. You held up a civillian at gunpoint, at which time we ultimately got DM rights - weither or not us shooting at you was as overuse of force would have been a case for an IA report, not for the forums in my opinion.

As the suspects continued fleeing and were pusued by other vehicles, I stayed back and took care of the hostage aswell as the investigations surrounding her. It was at this point that I was approached by the vehicle that was hit in the crossfire and informed about them taking  shots. They were not ignored at all, but rather asked by myself to pull over, after point which I went to the person that was hit and offered medical assistance and to call MD to it. The only thing they were asking for was a painkiller and some water, which I gladly offered them, after which they said something along the lines of "yeah, all good bro, happens, just be careful next time guys!" and drove off. They did not ask for any Badge Numbers, nor did they ask for any kind of compensations. Bringing, them not getting any, up OOCLY as unrealistic now is not fair, looking at the fact that they were offered help and could have easily mentioned it.

 

If anything, after rewatching the footage, the only thing that I could blame myself here for is hitting the vehicle further back, however, therefor have to point out that the facts that:

- The vehicle looked unoccupied on my POV and was stationary the whole time, which made it seem like it was parked up in the background

- The vehicle was not actively targeted but hit by stray bullets and the people afterwards being taken care of. It can be clearly seen in my footage that I did not intentionally fire any shots at the car in the background.

I, here again, think, that this would have been something that should have been brought up in an IC IA report, not in an OOC Rulebreak report.

 

To summarize it:
I think that the points that are made in the report, namely that we used too much force and endangered other people, is something that could be a perfect fit for the IC Internal Affairs, but isn't necessarily a rulebreak.

DM right were given on the vehicle due to their hostile actions beforehand and no shots were fired until the hostage was secured. No civillians were to be seen around the area, and the ones that were hit by stray bullets, were out of sight and being taken care of afterwards, with them not placing a report. I can't really speak for the pursuit, as I wasn't there for it, but don't think any rules were broken on the intial scene.

 

My POV: https://streamable.com/kxcltn

Edited May 27, 2021 by Avemir

[Harveyyy]

Greetings, 

It all started when I was driving back to the station when a guy approached me and told me that the store next to the parking lot is getting robbed. I inform the units on the radio and I go there. I arrive on the scene and I see a bunch of people inside grabbing the cash, as soon as they saw me, they all ran to the CCTV room behind the clerk. 20 seconds later, units arrive on the scene. I go back to the station to park my cruiser and to get a Hakuchou bike since they had a sultan classic as their get-away car. Seth_Cincaid starts doing the negotiations, while the rest of the units were working on the scene management. They blocked both exits with blockades and spike traps. After the negotiations came to an end, Paddy and Lewis came out of the store with the hostage. We secured the hostage right after they got in the car and drove off. 

My involvement in this situation was when Seth was doing the negotiations, I was at the corner of the street waiting for them to take off so I can pursue them, as I had a sports bike with me. As soon as they got in the car and drove off, I was already aiming for the rear tire, so I shot one bullet but I missed and got on my bike and chased them. 

After they took off and I called the pursuit. They were doing above 200 as Clay mentioned above. Until they pulled over and the driver pulled out his gun on me and Clay, but we both shot him down and then I chased Paddy_Walsh on foot. He ran behind a house as I was following him. I've heard some shots so I thought he was armed too. But according to the other SED deputy, he punched him while he was under gunpoint, so shots were fired. 

My POV will be sent to Timmaayy, as it contains staff chat. 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Harveyyy

[Nixon88]

24 minutes ago, Harveyyy said:

Greetings, 

It all started when I was driving back to the station when a guy approached me and told me that the store next to the parking lot is getting robbed. I inform the units on the radio and I go there. I arrive on the scene and I see a bunch of people inside grabbing the cash, as soon as they saw me, they all ran to the CCTV room behind the clerk. 20 seconds later, units arrive on the scene. I go back to the station to park my cruiser and to get a Hakuchou bike since they had a sultan classic as their get-away car. Seth_Cincaid starts doing the negotiations, while the rest of the units were working on the scene management. They blocked both exits with blockades and spike traps. After the negotiations came to an end, Paddy and Lewis came out of the store with the hostage. We secured the hostage right after they got in the car and drove off. 

My involvement in this situation was when Seth was doing the negotiations, I was at the corner of the street waiting for them to take off so I can pursue them, as I had a sports bike with me. As soon as they got in the car and drove off, I was already aiming for the rear tire, so I shot one bullet but I missed and got on my bike and chased them. 

After they took off and I called the pursuit. They were doing above 200 as Clay mentioned above. Until they pulled over and the driver pulled out his gun on me and Clay, but we both shot him down and then I chased Paddy_Walsh on foot. He ran behind a house as I was following him. I've heard some shots so I thought he was armed too. But according to the other SED deputy, he punched him while he was under gunpoint, so shots were fired. 

My POV will be sent to Timmaayy, as it contains staff chat. 

 

is it fair we dont get to see the footage? its all  OOC right , cant use it against anyone in game right? No meta /powergaming.

[Harveyyy]

@Nixon88 It's against the staff master policy to reveal any content that contains staff chat to any non-staff member. 

[Nixon88]

blurr it? is that possible?

[Nixon88]

"As the suspects continued fleeing and were pusued by other vehicles, I stayed back and took care of the hostage aswell as the investigations surrounding her. It was at this point that I was approached by the vehicle that was hit in the crossfire and informed about them taking  shots. They were not ignored at all, but rather asked by myself to pull over, after point which I went to the person that was hit and offered medical assistance and to call MD to it. The only thing they were asking for was a painkiller and some water, which I gladly offered them, after which they said something along the lines of "yeah, all good bro, happens, just be careful next time guys!" and drove off. They did not ask for any Badge Numbers, nor did they ask for any kind of compensations. Bringing, them not getting any, up OOCLY as unrealistic now is not fair, looking at the fact that they were offered help and could have easily mentioned it."

i was ignored until i approached you and yes i was gonna let it slide but see i was tagged in a post on the forums,  after I felt there was no need for such excessive force and endangeredd my life an others in the public area. In some the other footage i see officers were spraying rounds at the vehicle going down the main road which was  not needed the car was basically unconrollable and the car should have been dealt with  squad vehicles, not sprayin rounds multiple times on a main street,

Bare in mind no shots were fired until the last moments of the incident. Therefore there is no right to engage in a wreckless firefight. no member of SD or the hostage were injured but the SD fired on  a number of occasions in a lazy attampt to diffuse the situation. You failed RP and did not stick to the negotiations that were agreed. No spike strips and 20 seconds headstart, What if the robbers seen the breach of the agreements and  killed the hostage because they seen the spike strips set up Nofear RP,(no fear the robbers would see the lied about set up endangering the hostage further).

I think making an IA report is a lazy cop-out for Police who breach rules and let the breach fall on IC. where as for civilians and normal players it falls on our account resulting in warnings and admin logs. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by Nixon88

[Joshc7531]

2 hours ago, Timmaayy said:

 - Please provide a non-edited version of you POV, with no sped up parts.

 

[Joshc7531]

1 hour ago, Avemir said:

until she was safe behind me

Had we returned fire we could have easily hit her. Realistically she would have been 'secure' if you had of brought her behind the shop building. It was almost like the call was rushed because we were leaving.

1 hour ago, Avemir said:

I don't think this is NRP or PG

Do you believe spraying mags upon mags towards a moving car (in the directions of civilians) is a realistic action and promotes good RP? If so I would love to see a clip of an example of a similar situation IRL.

 

1 hour ago, Avemir said:

active threat

We were driving away from the scene. Yes we were armed. However, was the risk of injuring the civilians worth the reward of catching us in that exact minute or should you have let the spike strips burst our tires and then pursued us when we were away from all civilians.

[Avemir]

To take Position towards the last two comments:

 

You were not ignored, I simply didnt notice you until you rolled up to me and made me aware of the Situation. And again: Me not sticking to any "guarantees" I gave them ICly is not a rulebreak but an IC matter - As are any things you might see as IC failures on my side. In facz, I did Not even place the spike strips, and the units that did were not the ones actively talking to you.

Yes, he could have Opened fire out of the car, but going After realism - As you guys praise it , he would have either hit me, who was standing in Front of the hostage, or the officers that were shooting at him from his side. 

 

And no, I did not empty Magazine After Magazine into the fleeing vehicle, in fact,  I fired exactly 13 shots, which isnt even half a Magazine, with an AR into the vehicle before seizing fire as they were Not in an straight line infront of me anymore. 

Again, you had already taken a civillian hostage, where would have been our guarantee you wouldnt do that again to get yourself out of the Situation. You were seen as armed and dangerous and treated as so.

 

I can only repeat myself, I see the points you make as IC, not as an OOC rulebreak . I really dont get the narrative you guys are trying to push here. Is it great RP to laugh "typical" when under heavy gunfire? Is it realistic to punch a man with heavy weapons under gunpoint? I don't think so, still you guys try to urgently pull an IC matter into an OOC section. 

 

I think I have made my point clear. 

I will seize responding until asked by a member of staff.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Avemir

[Joshc7531]

4 minutes ago, Avemir said:

After realism, he would have either hit me, who was standing in Front of the hostage

Hostage POV (when first shots were fired)

When we were turning around the corner.

8 minutes ago, Avemir said:

I see the points you make as IC, not as an OOC rulebreak

We feel as though yous carried out unrealistic actions and promoted poor quality RP.

[Nixon88]

" fired exactly 13 shots,"

50% of which hit my car, 6 in total