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Phil McGee

Tavi Patronus: Meta-Gaming , Utilizing Water(Fail-Rp?)

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Player(s) being reported: Tavi Patronus
Date of rule breach:13/4/2018
Time of rule breach: 3PM GMT

Your characters name: Phil McGee 
Other players involved: @GaiusTavi @Eriksen

Eriksen took the IG report that is why I am tagging him.

Specific rule broken:
"1. Utilizing water via foot or vehicle is prohibited during a scenario where your character is being chased by another player unless agreed upon prior."

Metagaming to gain an in-game advantage, for example, requesting help from your allies through out-of-
character channels, will result in more severe punishments, than accidental metagaming, that serves no
benefit to the player, such as, calling a stranger by his character name.


How did the player break the rule?:
After getting into an altercation at Mirror Park and getting rammed repeatedly by Tavi and his Cohort I flee to to the docks. Tavi finds me parked up at the rear of the docks on his own and the ramming starts again. His engine stalls and I get out and proceed to unload on him. He then utilizes the water to escape my assault, violating this rule "1. Utilizing water via foot or vehicle is prohibited during a scenario where your character is being chased by another player unless agreed upon prior." Furthermore he not only decides to have a nice swim but but contacts his friends IG as to location furthering using the water to his advantage. He then finally swims to his preferred ladder and proceeds to try and down me after I go for him in my car. He then Meta games with his companion @1:55 by saying  " at the docks" in response to his companions messages giving out yet again IG information over OOC 3rd party software.  You can hear when he unmutes, says "at the docks" and the software remuting indicating he's knowingly used push to talk.


When contacted IG regarding the rule break he claimed he got stuck in the dive animation but clearly you can see him jump twice to get into the water and can hear him mashing his space bar in the video. 


I know this meta gaming issue keeps coming up and its literally always the same people.

Evidence of rule breach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDgvTwmiPTk&feature=youtu.be

TaviReport.JPG

Edited by Phil McGee

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Yes, I did jump into the water, I had equipped my AK whilst in the car, but as you can see when i got out, I didnt have a gun out, and when i pressed the button expecting to shoot, I just threw a punch. So I panicked, and tried to run, but had no escape other than trying to jump up the rope and then onto the ship, which clearly didnt work. In reality I did what any sane person would do when someone they know wants to kill them gets out a vehicle and starts shooting and fled in the only way possible, which was jumping in the water. I radiod in where I was when I was in the water yes, but to my mind at that point, I was doing the same as jumping behind cover. Had the section below been a ledge, you wouldn't have had any issue with me jumping down. But  it was water, so here we are. Water I might add isnt even particularly desynced on Rage, you can easily shoot people when they are in the water, but you went straight to trying to ram my car into the water, knowing it wouldnt be destroyed and I wouldnt be able to get it out.  

I didnt use the water to escape, I tried to find a ladder to come back up, You see me try to go up the first ladder, but it wouldn't let me up, so I came down and tried to find another way out. you can even hear me say 'how the fuck do I get out of here' whilst I search for another ladder. When I found a ladder I was able to get up, I came up and rather than taking my AK out and spraying you down immediately, which I would have considered poor RP, I took out a pistol, and you immediately tried to run me over twice so I ran to where I would be safe from getting run over. I would have tried to talk to you at this point, but you were already getting out the car trying to shoot me again. So yes, of course I fired back... was I supposed to just lay down and die?

As for the metagaming, at all points before you can see me only communicate through the in game radio, the one point where we didnt, was when Jessica asked if I heard her on the radio, which I didnt even respond to. At 1:55 yes i guess I did press the Discord PTT button rather than my radio, but you cannot hear anyone even react to it, most likely because I thought I was using in game radio so I was croaking into the mic quietly as If i had just been shot several times and was bleeding out.... Im sorry I pressed the wrong button, but I did not intentionally metagame anything, and with the exception of Jessica, who you can already see me radio where I was, using the same words 'at the docks' when I was in the water, no one else on discord was even in game at the time....we are just friends who like to talk to each other. 

As for telling you in game that I had tried to run and did the dive animation in, as I said to you in discord, I dont know why I thought that was what happened, but In my head, until I watched it back, that was what happened. I sent you the video of exactly what happened, unedited, I wasnt trying to hide anything, I was just mistaken about what had happened in a relatively intense moment of IG combat, I am sorry for that. 

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ID like to add, If I was gonna metagame and tell people in discord where I was...why would I be so vague and quiet and RP that im injured rather than just speaking normally and telling them exactly where I am?

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On 14/04/2018 at 12:57 AM, GaiusTavi said:

Yes, I did jump into the water, I had equipped my AK whilst in the car, but as you can see when i got out, I didnt have a gun out, and when i pressed the button expecting to shoot, I just threw a punch. So I panicked, and tried to run, but had no escape other than trying to jump up the rope and then onto the ship, which clearly didnt work. In reality I did what any sane person would do when someone they know wants to kill them gets out a vehicle and starts shooting and fled in the only way possible, which was jumping in the water. I radiod in where I was when I was in the water yes, but to my mind at that point, I was doing the same as jumping behind cover. Had the section below been a ledge, you wouldn't have had any issue with me jumping down. But  it was water, so here we are. Water I might add isnt even particularly desynced on Rage, you can easily shoot people when they are in the water, but you went straight to trying to ram my car into the water, knowing it wouldnt be destroyed and I wouldnt be able to get it out.  

Which is against the rules, and rather than tell me in /b that it was a mistake can we redo rp or something like that, you decide to stay down there and contact your friends over the radio. I have fled many times when fearing for my life, and had many opportunities for an easy water escape, but I know and you know that it's against the rules. You had no intention of going for the rope, you were ready to jump the second you saw the water, and now your claiming after all this and the chat over discord that you were going for the rope after you see your dive excuse it debunked. You panicked and broke a rule on purpose, to try and save yourself. If you had stayed on land you'd have been downed by my gunfire and that's a fact! 

 

On 14/04/2018 at 12:57 AM, GaiusTavi said:

I didnt use the water to escape, I tried to find a ladder to come back up, You see me try to go up the first ladder, but it wouldn't let me up, so I came down and tried to find another way out. you can even hear me say 'how the fuck do I get out of here' whilst I search for another ladder. When I found a ladder I was able to get up, I came up and rather than taking my AK out and spraying you down immediately, which I would have considered poor RP, I took out a pistol, and you immediately tried to run me over twice so I ran to where I would be safe from getting run over. I would have tried to talk to you at this point, but you were already getting out the car trying to shoot me again. So yes, of course I fired back... was I supposed to just lay down and die?

 

I've never heard of or experienced anyway not being able to climb a ladder on rage or GTMP, we've used ladders loads of time to gain height advantage and have never encountered this before. I went back to the ladder and I have no issues climbing up and down and up and down. It seems very far fetched that the ladder just wouldn't let you climb up it. You had time to radio to your friend, take a couple of seconds to find yourself on the map and then get off the ladder and find the furthest ladder from where you jumped in. You mention not using your AK to elevate your RP, clearly you were panicked and didnt have it drawn on the ladder and you know it freezes you in place when you switch which would have been easy pickings for my car so you retreated to the dustbin and got downed. So trying to take the RP high road is a bit rich IMHO.

https://gyazo.com/2389ae3c53c0537a70ae7060abedc1b0   <-----------Me climbing the exact ladder you cant. 3 of us attempted the impossible and it worked fine for us all. 

 

On 14/04/2018 at 12:57 AM, GaiusTavi said:

As for the metagaming, at all points before you can see me only communicate through the in game radio, the one point where we didnt, was when Jessica asked if I heard her on the radio, which I didnt even respond to. At 1:55 yes i guess I did press the Discord PTT button rather than my radio, but you cannot hear anyone even react to it, most likely because I thought I was using in game radio so I was croaking into the mic quietly as If i had just been shot several times and was bleeding out.... Im sorry I pressed the wrong button, but I did not intentionally metagame anything, and with the exception of Jessica, who you can already see me radio where I was, using the same words 'at the docks' when I was in the water, no one else on discord was even in game at the time....we are just friends who like to talk to each other. 

This isn't the first time you've metagamed and I can't remember a video with you in it from you or one of your gang members POV's that didn't include metagaming. You and your group have been warned personally by @BallinByNature and you all continue to do this. It could be acceptable that this was unintentional if this was your 1st time doing it, instead, like I pointed out this happens a lot with you (and your group). You say that no one else on discord was in game, however, earlier in the paragraph you say that Jessica is in game. If the roles were reversed and I had been the one to jump in the water, you would certainly not have given me the chance or courtesy to explain my side before taking it the forums which I did. You referred to the report as "petty" which clearly indicates you dont feel  a clear rule break is a serious issue, or dont care. 

Edited by Phil McGee
Tag fix

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As you can see in this 3-minute long video, I was roaming around trying to find Tavi. Not at any time did he tell me where exactly he was. He only said "Docs" multiple times. You can see me roaming around the docs but not finding him. Even if he said he was at the docs via Discord, that wouldn't bring him any advantage, because I already knew that he was at the docs, but not where exactly. There are multiple docs as you can see in this picture.

https://plays.tv/s/Lh6GpTjbAyR4

https://imgur.com/Hq2vbsS

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Thanks for the extra evidence and your input. I can confirm in your video @1:46 Tavi states " He's probably stolen my car , how do I get out of here" this was not transmitted over the IG radio clearly in Tavis video and he was  relaying intel over 3rd party OOC software. 

You can even hear him do push to talk in his video now that I look at it again when he says that, which means it was 100% intentional. 

 

 

Edited by Phil McGee
Typo

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@GaiusTavi 

Why is it if this was accidental that you used your radio to transmit your from the ladder close to the bottom of the water and appearing to stall before returning to land and attempting to return to the Role Play?

Also why did you transmit through 3rd party software "He's probably stolen my car , how do I get out of here" and the second transmission of "At the Docks" at 2:03 in the first video?

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@InfamousFelix I used the radio, because I was planning to just continue the situation at that point. I was thinking of it as ive just dived to cover, i know i cant just swim away to safety, but that doesnt mean i cant still try and get help, it wouldnt be realistic to just die. I tried to go up the ladder, but it wouldnt let me go up it, i dont know why, but it didnt, so i tried to find another way to get back up. 

As for why I transmitted through 3rd party software 'hes proabably stolen my car, how do i get out of here' Im honestly not sure, It was most likely due to the fact I couldnt work out how to get out of there, and knowing that Phil would have probably stolen my car. Im honestly surprised that he didnt and instead tried to push it into the water, knowing that that wouldnt destroy it and it would be stuck there until I could get an admin to destroy it for me. The reason I said it through third party software, was that I was just talking to my friends, most of whom werent even in game at the time. The only one who was was Jessica Rawler, who didnt know where I was other than 'at the docks' as i had said before, which is a pretty large area, and it doesnt seem like information that could really be used in anyway to give an advantage. I didnt know if he was stealing my car, or if he already had, and even if Jessica had heard me say it, its purely speculation. I didnt know why i couldnt get up the first ladder, which is why I asked how do i get out of here, I wasnt really expecting an answer, it was mostly just talking to myself. If  you listen in the video, you can hear me press the transmit button 5 or 6 times whilst im in the water without even saying anything, noone in call seemed to have even heard me or reacted to it in anyway. 

As for the second transmission 'At the Docks' I genuinely dont think i meant to say this through discord, but via in game radio and just pressed the wrong button. If I was going to try and metagame to tell people where I was to get help, why would i be RPing that i was injured and dying whilst I did so? that was the reason why i said it so quietly and groaning, because I was RPing that I was dying after being shot so many times. IF I was going to metagame and tell people where I was to get help, surely I would just say 'guys im down come quick, i need help' and tell them exactly where I am in a normal voice, rather than being so vague and quiet?

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1 hour ago, GaiusTavi said:

I used the radio, because I was planning to just continue the situation at that point. I was thinking of it as ive just dived to cover, i know i cant just swim away to safety, but that doesnt mean i cant still try and get help, it wouldnt be realistic to just die. I tried to go up the ladder, but it wouldnt let me go up it, i dont know why, but it didnt, so i tried to find another way to get back up.

You didnt dive to cover, you jumped into the water which you know is against the rules to gain an unfair advantage over me. Then use that advantage to try and get your companions to help you. You could have RPed surrendering if you knew you were trapped and try and RP your way out even after I typed /b but you chose to try and use this unfair advantage and the ladder of your choice. 

1 hour ago, GaiusTavi said:

As for why I transmitted through 3rd party software 'hes proabably stolen my car, how do i get out of here' Im honestly not sure, It was most likely due to the fact I couldnt work out how to get out of there, and knowing that Phil would have probably stolen my car. Im honestly surprised that he didnt and instead tried to push it into the water, knowing that that wouldnt destroy it and it would be stuck there until I could get an admin to destroy it for me. The reason I said it through third party software, was that I was just talking to my friends, most of whom werent even in game at the time. The only one who was was Jessica Rawler, who didnt know where I was other than 'at the docks' as i had said before, which is a pretty large area, and it doesnt seem like information that could really be used in anyway to give an advantage. I didnt know if he was stealing my car, or if he already had, and even if Jessica had heard me say it, its purely speculation. I didnt know why i couldnt get up the first ladder, which is why I asked how do i get out of here, I wasnt really expecting an answer, it was mostly just talking to myself. If  you listen in the video, you can hear me press the transmit button 5 or 6 times whilst im in the water without even saying anything, noone in call seemed to have even heard me or reacted to it in anyway. 

Just because you are unable to articulate your exact location due to it being a less frequented area doesn't make it ok to give your location and situation information over a 3rd party OOC software. "Speculation" or not you are sharing IG information over OOC 3rd party software, you had suspicions I was doing something. You didn't even transmit that IG for me to have a possible reaction time, again you were trying to gain an advantage to your speculative scenario. I dont think its reasonable that you were unable to climb a ladder that we tested and found fine but were able to climb an exact replica which I wasn't looking at and gave you an advantage of trying to flank me. 

1 hour ago, GaiusTavi said:

As for the second transmission 'At the Docks' I genuinely dont think i meant to say this through discord, but via in game radio and just pressed the wrong button. If I was going to try and metagame to tell people where I was to get help, why would i be RPing that i was injured and dying whilst I did so? that was the reason why i said it so quietly and groaning, because I was RPing that I was dying after being shot so many times. IF I was going to metagame and tell people where I was to get help, surely I would just say 'guys im down come quick, i need help' and tell them exactly where I am in a normal voice, rather than being so vague and quiet?

While intention is important you and your group have been warned about meta gaming several times, yet these " accidents" keep happening. The fact of the matter is you and groups reports contain so much meta gaming and are blase about sharing videos with meta gaming in them that you clearly dont care about flouting the rules and have total disregard for the warnings you have received for meta gaming from senior admins and head admins.  This is footage you are OK  with showing , I can only imagine whats hidden behind closed doors. 

 

Edited by Phil McGee
Typo

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Also @InfamousFelix I'd like to add that Tavi claims that only Jessica was in game but the video shows that John Obama , and Mike White are also in-game as in @Kay133 and you can also hear them reference IG things in the video.

 

 You can see in the text in the top left 4 active faction members who were present in the discord. In my opinion he is lying to you which is quite a serious offence. 

Screenshot_20180416-210022.png

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There are no timestamps in the videos Phil, You can see in my video that when I did it, it was only Mike, Mike and Jessica, and even that was done before this situation. By the time this situation started, it was only Myself and Jessica still in game, there were 8 people in our discord, but only two in game. I cant show any evidence of before the situation when I actually did /fmembers, as the footage I saved was only a short section, but I do have footage of me immediately after I died doing /fmembers and you can see it was only myself and Rawler online. 

 

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Whos arguing, I'm merely pointing out points of evidence I feel are relevant. You can literally hear Mike White during the pursuit and see him typing over the radio. And can see this all happened after the pursuit at mirror park gas station started going by Jessica's chat text so it wasn't just the 2 of you as you stated.

All your video proves is who is left after you got your "guts pushed". I'm sure if the admins want there must be chat records or records of people online.

Edited by Phil McGee

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Well at point he had ample time to come out of the water and reengage in RP via /b or even over voice but he choose not to do so, so I was trying to get his car on the side using the large wooden border on the docks and to shoot his fuel tank and ignite his car and thus him having to incur the cost of getting a super car from moors and be stranded at the docks. The weapon I had on me at the time was a recently acquired SMG which the ammo is quite limited to me at the moment so i didn't want to waste any of it as I will need it all for the oncoming war as I dont have access to order any from a warehouse, yet. Not to mention buying it wholesale is more expensive than any car repairs I had to incur from this or the previous ramming of my car from Tavi and Companion at Mirror Park. 

I proceeded to continue my actions after killing him with the outcome of his car ending up in the water but by a freak bounce of GTA Physics to my dismay as Id much prefer him to have to have had to pay the cash.  He had the car back in within a few minutes as he drove by one of the lads straight after this in the car.  

Is lightly ramming cars now against the rules and I wasn't told nor can I see any such announcements @InfamousFelix

As if it is the case I doubt Tavi or his companion was aware either as you can see the ramming that initiated the entire chase from Tavi  in his supercar and his companion in the jeep. And actually in the video you can actually hear him calling out for Mike on the radio at 2:47 which again proves my previous point that Mike White was IG during this RP and present on the discord.

 

 

Edited by Phil McGee
typo

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