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CallumMontie

Remove Welfare when in a High Tax Bracket & Other Criteria.

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The Issue:
One of the main issues I've seen occur over my 2 years on ECRP is the ongoing and rapid inflation of money.
A lot has been done to counteract this over the time, however there are still some aspects of income that are simply unrequired.

Inflation:
Currently $4,000,000 is spawned in per day for welfare alone. (Info from the Founders)
Meaning that $28,000,000 per week is spawned in. The equivalent to some of the highest ever auction bids on the server.

Say 50% of this income comes from individuals in any of the below categories, a total of $14,000,000 per week would be removed.


Proposal:
The "hourly" welfare should be removed for those in the following categories:

  • In the 35% Tax Bracket.
  • Employed in a Government Faction e.g. PD, SD, MD, DCC, DOC, GOV.
  • Own a "Player Owned" Business e.g. Gas Station, Store, Vehicle Dealership.
     

Reason:
If you find yourself requiring welfare to "live" whilst in a tax bracket, it shows a clear character issue and assets should be sold to compensate.
This way players are made to develop an active income to support their needs. A millionaire should not freely receive $100 + (XP/1000) every IRL hour.

 

Edited by CallumMontie
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I am in support of this. I believe new players should receive welfare until certain amount of experience or playtime, once they reach that threshold, it should stop. In that case, they would have to rely on employment (or other money making sources), whether it's a legal faction or jobs that do not require faction invite.  

People should fund themselves once they establish in the server. I hope my taxes also decrease with this!

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Just now, dawpi said:

I am in support of this. I believe new players should receive welfare until certain amount of experience or playtime, once they reach that threshold, it should stop. In that case, they would have to rely on employment (or other money making sources), whether it's a legal faction or jobs that do not require faction invite.  

People should fund themselves once they establish in the server. I hope my taxes also decrease with this!

+1 to everything but the xp or playtime, it should go by there net worth

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I honestly don't find this to really be an issue, I don't see the wellfare causing any inflation of money at all in fact it barely even covers fuel prices so I'm not sure how this will impact anything positively could you please elaborate so I can understand.

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1 minute ago, CalvinKlein said:

I honestly don't find this to really be an issue, I don't see the wellfare causing any inflation of money at all in fact it barely even covers fuel prices so I'm not sure how this will impact anything positively could you please elaborate so I can understand.

The welfare is spawned in money that comes from no closed-economy source. Yes it may cover your fuel but it its still additional spawned in money, just in another players pocket causing overall inflation. If that makes any sense

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1 minute ago, CallumMontie said:

The welfare is spawned in money that comes from no closed-economy source. Yes it may cover your fuel but it its still additional spawned in money, just in another players pocket causing overall inflation. If that makes any sense

I'm saying it does not even cover fuel so its really barely affecting the economy overall and I don't think this is something that urgently needs to be worked on given you literally get like 1k for playing for a few hours (for the 35% tax bracket)

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2 hours ago, Solomun said:

This won't have an affect at all 

Currently $4,000,000 is spawned in per day for welfare alone. (Info from the Founders)
Meaning that $28,000,000 per week is spawned in. The equivalent to some of the highest ever auction bids on the server.

Say 50% of this income comes from individuals in any of the listed categories, a total of $14,000,000 per week would be removed.

Which is $728,000,000 per annum removed.

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5 minutes ago, CallumMontie said:

Currently $4,000,000 is spawned in per day for welfare alone. (Info from the Founders)
Meaning that $28,000,000 per week is spawned in. The equivalent to some of the highest ever auction bids on the server.

Say 50% of this income comes from individuals in any of the listed categories, a total of $14,000,000 per week would be removed.

Which is $728,000,000 per annum removed.

4,000,000$ a day divided by how many players over how many hours each ?

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This is definitely not the be-all and end-all of fixing the economy but its certainly a good direction to go in.

If you are complaining about how much you're gonna miss the welfare then maybe find a proper source of income such as a job or any given avenue of criminal roleplay. 

Auctions and inactivity house sales will also benefit the economy greatly, with a higher supply of real estate then the demand will go down, therefore decreasing prices.
Also it will wipe a large portion of money from the server as players will be buying houses from the script rather than from another player. 

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1 minute ago, JakeInnit_ said:

This is definitely not the be-all and end-all of fixing the economy but its certainly a good direction to go in.

If you are complaining about how much you're gonna miss the welfare then maybe find a proper source of income such as a job or any given avenue of criminal roleplay. 

Auctions and inactivity house sales will also benefit the economy greatly, with a higher supply of real estate then the demand will go down, therefore decreasing prices.
Also it will wipe a large portion of money from the server as players will be buying houses from the script rather than from another player. 

this was mainly what I was getting at with the house thing, if you walk around paleto by the bank, or in sandy where the players did the /ram every other house is still unlock which indicates those owner of those houses havent even been on since the 5-6 months the incident happened. 

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3 hours ago, CallumMontie said:

The welfare is spawned in money that comes from no closed-economy source. Yes it may cover your fuel but it its still additional spawned in money, just in another players pocket causing overall inflation. If that makes any sense

People leave the server everyday, and granted it probably isn't the equivalent of the four million spawned roughly per day, but still there is money bleeding from the economy too.

Here are ways money bleeds from the economy:

Clothing stores

Driving fines

Painkillers

Plastic surgery

Tax

The loss of guns by criminals (hundreds of thousands per fight or confiscation from PD)

DOC fines

Owners buying stock for their stores, dealerships and gas stations

I'm not sure if I would count LSC or Bayview, as I'm not sure if the revenue is what pays the employee's but I'm sure, most hours of the day, the revenue generated from these two exceeds the amount employee's get paid.

There is a lot of money bleeding from the economy too which could quite possibly be a lot higher than the total spawned from the economy. As someone in the top tax bracket, I wasn't living above my means, but with the recent changes and it being much harder to make money, fishing, hunting, oil and the welfare are the only way to make money as a civilian or criminal.

While your idea benefits a lot of people who are liquid, reducing the amount of money coming into the economy, will in turn, reduce spending, a reduction in spending means the people who are living "above their means" will struggle to sell the assets they own.

If you want to remove welfare the server needs to focus on increasing roleplay standards, taking money away from people and making this more of a "grindy" server doesn't help that at all as people are forced to afk farm. While you can argue that people should be creative with how they earn money, not everyone is a entrepreneur / businessman or woman. 

Increasing the need to worry about money, will decrease the RP opportunities. I know a very popular roleplay server that offers 200k to new characters within their first 40 hours on the server (5k/per hour), it's proven to work well, people represent their characters and leave a lot of it in their bank, it's not cool to be a new character and drive a sports car, as it doesn't make sense for character progression.

Adding ways to promote business' like the ability to for player created business' to put a advert/blip up (as weazel isn't always active there should be a secondary way to do it if none are online) when they are open and allowing them to hire employee's (scriptly) who get paid hourly (either government or from the revenue of the business) will increase the roleplay opportunities, you will see more bars, with bar workers, pawn shops selling used goods, the list could go on.

We might seeing business' opening more often rather than a faction throwing an event once a month at the hopes of getting official.

Another way to limit inflation is to disallow over valuing of stuff, for example a 2G valued at 200k by the government, could never be sold for more than x3 the base value. As someone else said in this thread, there is a lot of empty and unused properties within the server, if someone leaves the server for X amount of time, the property could go up for sale and reset the interior dimension, allowing new people to buy it. Upon returning, the next property they buy (as long as it's the same interior as the last one they bought) would get set to the same interior they used before, returning them all their items.

 

Edited by givejoshamosin
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+1 To the proposal, even though the welfare is a nice cushion for some expenses like gas and food I dont think it should continue to be provided to the categories described.

Interesting to see where this will end up and if it will eventually be added.

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1 hour ago, givejoshamosin said:

Another way to limit inflation is to disallow over valuing of stuff, for example a 2G valued at 200k by the government, could never be sold for more than x3 the base value.

This aspect alone deserves its own suggestion, really good idea.

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Of all other ways money is spawned into the server, I don't think the 500$ I get per hour that allows me to afford one burger is something to be worried about.

How much salary is spawned out of legal jobs? I would be interested to know.

Do the figures you brought in cover the amount that is loss in taxes? Or is it just the raw 1000$ before tax?

Selling drugs gives spawned money, robbing stores gives spawned money, robbing banks give spawned money, sitting AFK at high end waiting for ads request to come in gives spawned money, selling a fish to the dropoff gives spawned money.

Of all these ways money is brought in, I don't think the amount of money I get from 2 fishes worth of work is an issue.

How much is the total amount of money brought in by government factions (MD, PD, Mechanics, etc etc).

These people are putting close to no risk of losing money due to their activities and yet, they're the most paid.

Comes also the money drains, the raw costs of importing supplies for stores, fuel, clothes, ticket/fines.

Government factions members are so rewarded for their work, you barely never see any of them out of their job.

Economy is inflating I can't deny it, but it's not coming from those receiving a 500$ pay each hour that they'll have to spend on food or gas either way.

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+1 Anyone in the 35% tax bracket shouldn't need this welfare. Surely if you've managed to drive yourself to be so illiquid that 500$ is keeping you alive you have bigger issues to deal with than welfare.

Source: Someone who regularly blows all his money on cars just to bum drinks from @Luke Raven

 

As for the maths pointed out, these sorts of numbers can only really be analysed with something to compare it too. 4,000,000$ million spawned per day in welfare might be a negligible amount of money if you compare it to the total amount of money generated by players everyday. To illustrate my point. Imagine the totality of money growth per day from people doing jobs (fishing, farming, etc...), criminal activities (chop shop, drugs, etc...) and working government jobs is 400,000,000$ per day. (this is probably not true, like I said, example.) 1% of all money generated in one day coming from spawned money given in the form of welfare all of the sudden becomes an insignificant statistic. However, if welfare is a significant percentage of total daily money generated then that would be cause to worry and an argument to further restrict it.

As for the suggestion that was floated with regards to certain housing being fixed. This is simple Econ 101, the only reason these houses are sold for such a massive amount of money is because the supply and demand curves for those assets made it so. This doesn't have to be solved by forcing a maximum selling price, all devs have to do is simply introduce more supply into the server. Grab a few hotel/motel main doors and add an apartment like UI/Interior/Script. People walk in, press E on the door and can buy cheaper/shittier apartments than the ones available right now. Now, do this x20 all over the map and you will likely see a quick decrease in the overall price of these assets as the supply increases significantly. To further help, make these apartments 1Gs and lowest price (after a few days of introducing it) around 75-100k.

Edited by Cyrus Raven
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+1,

great suggestion. I know that the founders will sometimes free up houses of inactive players, but this should be done more regularly. There should be more ways to take money out of the economy, like maybe property taxes/some kind of house decay where you have to pay for upkeep maybe.

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-1 To removing welfare for certain Rpers.
With all sources of generated money into the server being scripted removing welfare for some players is not something I want to see happen.
I don't think its healthy to force script-based upkeep onto players who would rather create RP then be confined into the scripted jobs. Welfare is single handedly the best RP generation tool that has existed on ECRP.



+1 To balancing the economy and improving the welfare system!
I think its obvious the economy is extremely lopsided and newer players are struggling to catch up. I blame this on the increasing prices of assets and cost to sustain ALL characters that has been happening over time. To balance the economy the 'fix' cant apply equally to everyone and must disproportionally affect the wealthier. (The original suggestion by CallumMontie accomplishes this, but I don't think its the right way personally.) 



Many of the richest people started before speed cameras, before food/water were needed to sustain, with 6/7$ gas, when drug ingredients paid for themselves, and did it all while earning MUCH higher welfare amounts. Simply put, we had it easier back then. I just don't want this to turn into a  'reactionary' survival server' the moment you hit 35% tax bracket and you need to liquidate and tax evade to RP again.

Edited by HighTV
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I think if you are in stable employment (legal factions) in game, you shouldn't get it. Why would you need it?

Normally, i'd say that probably best to remove it from people who committed crimes but at the end of the day, they can't get hired for those jobs so they need some kind of safety net. Hard out there for crims.

+1 with certain conditions.

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2 hours ago, Cyrus Raven said:

+1 Anyone in the 35% tax bracket shouldn't need this welfare. Surely if you've managed to drive yourself to be so illiquid that 500$ is keeping you alive you have bigger issues to deal with than welfare.

Source: Someone who regularly blows all his money on cars just to bum drinks from @Luke Raven

 

As for the maths pointed out, these sorts of numbers can only really be analysed with something to compare it too. 4,000,000$ million spawned per day in welfare might be a negligible amount of money if you compare it to the total amount of money generated by players everyday. To illustrate my point. Imagine the totality of money growth per day from people doing jobs (fishing, farming, etc...), criminal activities (chop shop, drugs, etc...) and working government jobs is 400,000,000$ per day. (this is probably not true, like I said, example.) 1% of all money generated in one day coming from spawned money given in the form of welfare all of the sudden becomes an insignificant statistic. However, if welfare is a significant percentage of total daily money generated then that would be cause to worry and an argument to further restrict it.

As for the suggestion that was floated with regards to certain housing being fixed. This is simple Econ 101, the only reason these houses are sold for such a massive amount of money is because the supply and demand curves for those assets made it so. This doesn't have to be solved by forcing a maximum selling price, all devs have to do is simply introduce more supply into the server. Grab a few hotel/motel main doors and add an apartment like UI/Interior/Script. People walk in, press E on the door and can buy cheaper/shittier apartments than the ones available right now. Now, do this x20 all over the map and you will likely see a quick decrease in the overall price of these assets as the supply increases significantly. To further help, make these apartments 1Gs and lowest price (after a few days of introducing it) around 75-100k.

Welfare has top spot of generated income per day

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I would go as far and say that if anyone has 50k on their account and/or is in the medium bracket, they shouldn't receive welfare. But welrafe is only part of a bigger problem.

The bigger issue is that there are simply not enough money drains. Properties for example should have weekly upkeep costs depending on their garage size. If a player misses 4 payments, the property would be siezed by the government for 2 more weeks (making it unusable). If all bills aren't paid till then, it goes for sale for its original estimated value. This would also solve the housing issue if players are inactive for too long.

GTAO has a similar feature to prevent players from owning the most expensive stuff without doing much work to maintain it. Costs there can reach 250k every game day (about 45 minutes).

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56 minutes ago, Marca said:

I would go as far and say that if anyone has 50k on their account and/or is in the medium bracket, they shouldn't receive welfare. But welrafe is only part of a bigger problem.

The bigger issue is that there are simply not enough money drains. Properties for example should have weekly upkeep costs depending on their garage size. If a player misses 4 payments, the property would be siezed by the government for 2 more weeks (making it unusable). If all bills aren't paid till then, it goes for sale for its original estimated value. This would also solve the housing issue if players are inactive for too long.

GTAO has a similar feature to prevent players from owning the most expensive stuff without doing much work to maintain it. Costs there can reach 250k every game day (about 45 minutes).

-1 

not to sound toxic but I can’t tell if you’re trolling or not, and please don’t compare Eclipse to GTA:O

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11 hours ago, NBDY said:

Welfare has top spot of generated income per day

Knowing this makes this suggestion a big +1 from me. As mentioned before, in theory, anyone in 35% tax bracket (heck, anyone with at least 100k in their account) probably don't need welfare. Whilst new players getting this or people with little to no money in their account (think of criminals who got fucked by fines and have no assets as an example) would get good use out of this.

 

As a long term solution for economy, it would be nice to see a mostly player ran economy. Only one or two main points of items spawning to kickstart it, let's say the docks, for example. 

 

- A gas station wants to sell gas ? They have to import the fuel from a fuel ship at the docks + pay the trucker fee for it.

- A 24/7 wants to order restock for their items ? They have to buy it from the docks + delivery cost.

- Bayview/LSC want to order parts/paint/tools ? They have to order it, pay for it + delivery cost 

- PD/MD/DOC/SD went over budget on vehicles used or weapons used ? They need to order more cars/equipment/gloves/items + have them delivered. This would then inform the factions about a new budget allocation for next month to ensure they don't run out, making maintaining budgets important. Furthermore, budget allocation isn't infinite, meaning, if you are under budget for a month and need to make last minute orders, this money has to come from somewhere, likely salaries or any planned events. Similarly, if they are consistently overestimating their budget as an effort to not deal with last minute orders then the government might audit the faction and look to forcibly cut specific items that see little to no use. The end goal would then be to attempt, as accurately as possible, to estimate the money used within these factions every month (maybe every 2 or 4 months cause this isn't financial simulator) and then portarty this in RP by driving an emphasis on faction players not to waste or use unnecessary resources.

- Civilians are fishing too much ? Well have this effect the overall supply of fish in the economy and drastically tank sell prices for fish, just like drugs. Forcing people to either spread out more equally or constantly switch jobs. 

 

I don't want to post other community names here, but there are examples of this working fairly decently, if any staff/dev is interested PM me and I will gladly assist.

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