New Life Rule (NLR) Adjustment

[Rekamon]

Huge +1. I’d really like to see either a higher up administrator or someone in FM just respond to this and give me some feedback about this adjustment. I find actively playing as a criminal, it’s extremely hard to develop any long term conflict under the clarification. I genuinely don’t see how any War Application or official war can be made if simply 1 large scale shootout dissolves all conflict, I actually make the argument that the current NLR is non realistic. Bruce already spoke briefly but there’s multiple ongoing gang battles in real life, why would a video game be less realistic than real life in regards to gang conflict? I’ve spoken to @Aldari_Tagril and his opinions were practically that large scale shootouts shouldn’t happen often. And I believe this is wrong, if the NLR rule is adjusted to in my opinion how most of the criminals want it, then you will have much deeper and more roleplay reason to do various things. All conflict doesn’t lead to shootouts, but all shootouts are from conflict. So once again if you dissolve all conflict, it becomes stale and hard to develop an actual story line. My specific character had a lot of issues with the Zetas, being that my very first gang was wiped off the face of the Earth by them due to poor leadership and high confidence. So that IC conflict was the main factor in deciding which gang I wanted to pursue next. With the current rule set of NLR, we would have never been attacked as much and never helped me develop my backstory as a character. A common misunderstanding people and even staff have today is that shooting people is just bad for the server. If I hadn’t  had my gang (seaweed) clapped over and over I would’ve stopped playing honestly. The issues I had with them made me want to log on and plot my decisions to do next. Another thing I would like to say is take a look at a war between NLA and WCA that took place late 2019 to early 2020. The leader of one being now an active moderator @alexalex303, this war lasted extremely long around 8 months if I’m not mistaken. That type of long hard fought conflict isn’t possible anymore. It’s safe to say that if that were to happen today WCA would’ve received numerous messages from FM and most if not ALL would be punished for NLR from one person making a forum report. This same conflict was what developed NLA as a gang in the eyes of council because they showed persistence taking multiple hits from all gangs and still surviving. Being under the new NLR, their gang might not have had the same path.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Rekamon

[alexalex303]

 

Huge +1. I’d really like to see either a higher up administrator or someone in FM just respond to this and give me some feedback about this adjustment. I find actively playing as a criminal, it’s extremely hard to develop any long term conflict under the clarification. I genuinely don’t see how any War Application or official war can be made if simply 1 large scale shootout dissolves all conflict, I actually make the argument that the current NLR is non realistic. Bruce already spoke briefly but there’s multiple ongoing gang battles in real life, why would a video game be less realistic than real life in regards to gang conflict? I’ve spoken to @Aldari_Tagril and his opinions were practically that large scale shootouts shouldn’t happen often. And I believe this is wrong, if the NLR rule is adjusted to in my opinion how most of the criminals want it, then you will have much deeper and more roleplay reason to do various things. All conflict doesn’t lead to shootouts, but all shootouts are from conflict. So once again if you dissolve all conflict, it becomes stale and hard to develop an actual story line. My specific character had a lot of issues with the Zetas, being that my very first gang was wiped off the face of the Earth by them due to poor leadership and high confidence. So that IC conflict was the main factor in deciding which gang I wanted to pursue next. With the current rule set of NLR, we would have never been attacked as much and never helped me develop my backstory as a character. A common misunderstanding people and even staff have today is that shooting people is just bad for the server. If I hadn’t  had my gang (seaweed) clapped over and over I would’ve stopped playing honestly. The issues I had with them made me want to log on and plot my decisions to do next. Another thing I would like to say is take a look at a war between NLA and WCA that took place late 2019 to early 2020. The leader of one being now an active moderator @alexalex303, this war lasted extremely long around 8 months if I’m not mistaken. That type of long hard fought conflict isn’t possible anymore. It’s safe to say that if that were to happen today WCA would’ve received numerous messages from FM and most if not ALL would be punished for NLR from one person making a forum report. This same conflict was what developed NLA as a gang in the eyes of council because they showed persistence taking multiple hits from all gangs and still surviving. Being under the new NLR, their gang might not have had the same path.

Removing the NLR rule, or adjusting it to allow for permanent conflict within the current would cause nothing but chaos on the server, as we've seen the past week.

The issue is that RAGE doesn't really currently support that many players in one spot, and gangs grew drastically since the old days. We all remember the last auction event; We all remember the WCA+Dojin vs Council War. We would have 30-40 people crashing every fight, then LSPD got involved at the grove fight, and literally half of all the people there crashed. You simply can't have that many players in a small area for a shootout. This is on top of the fact that you now got literally all law enforcement, and all MD units dedicated to a single event on the server, for maybe even an hour (as the scenes drag on). Someone that injured himself on his motorbike? He's not getting any help. You're effectively taking the server hostage whenever you want to have a large shootout. Even if LSPD is not initially involved, it's very common that people will call MD to report gunshot wounds, and PD/SD respond anyway.

You've named the NLA v WCA conflict. Here's the difference though, that was a conflict between two growing gangs. We had at most, 30 people at one fight (total, not each side). And those were about once in the early EU, and one late NA. It wasn't non-stop fighting. NLA even kept hosting their church meetings, and for the most part, those events went on without attack. Vory did join at one point, and it turned into a 2v3, but even those fights did not come close to the amount of people involved in the current fights in the server, and it didn't last, and we went back to a 1v1.

If you wish to support shootouts/fighting as a healthy things for gangs, I might even be in favor of that, however, not in the current rule-set.

I would keep NLR the way it is right now, to stop random conflicts from happening, and I would make the following changes:

• I would allow civilian (factions with handlers that are not official) to file a war application against another gang.
• There would be no allies allowed in the actual fighting.

This would allow for the WCA x NLA fighting that you remember, and for the Zeta x Seaweed fight. What it would not allow for however, is GangA + GangB + GangC + GangD vs GangE + GangF. 

So what's the point of allies then? There is still a very strong point to allies, just like there is in real-life. I noticed that you referenced real-life. When was the last time you saw two gangs fighting, and a third jumped in the actual fighting? like on the streets? It's not a thing that happens. What an ally/friendly person would offer a gang fighting would be logistical support, and that would transfer well in our server.

For example, if Gang A is fighting Gang B, and I'm friendly with Gang A? I can provide Gang A weapons at lower prices compared to Gang B, or even threaten the other gangs to not sell any weapons to Gang B or they will ruin relations with us. If they are official, I can provide them with vehicles to chop, and drugs to sell, so they can win the influence battle over turfs. I can provide them with information about the enemy, even infiltrate them and leak frequency to my allies. I can do a lot of things, just not partake into the fighting directly.

This would allow fights to become more common, but without disrupting the whole server when they happen. As they will at most be a 30v30 (and even those numbers are ambitious due to timezone differences). 

[Thomas Beaulieu]

 

 

I would keep NLR the way it is right now, to stop random conflicts from happening, and I would make the following changes:

• I would allow civilian (factions with handlers that are not official) to file a war application against another gang.
• There would be no allies allowed in the actual fighting.

 

I agree with a lot of things from both sides, there are pros and cons. I feel like your suggestion would actually be a good first step to get things going with allowing non official gangs to have "official" wars. 

[Fuz]

 

I would keep NLR the way it is right now, to stop random conflicts from happening, and I would make the following changes:

• I would allow civilian (factions with handlers that are not official) to file a war application against another gang.
• There would be no allies allowed in the actual fighting.

This would allow for the WCA x NLA fighting that you remember, and for the Zeta x Seaweed fight. What it would not allow for however, is GangA + GangB + GangC + GangD vs GangE + GangF. 

This is actually a good suggestion but how can you keep the NLR rule the same? This suggestion can't happen without scrapping the rule, one fight and the so called "war" would end in one fight, the new NLR rule and war rules literally contradict each other and are bad for criminal RP and is why no one has partaken in one since the first ever one which we were forced to partake in.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Fuz

[Rekamon]

I like some of your points @alexalex303but I think you and the rulebook are both contradicting themselves. As Fuz briefly stated you can’t have a war app without actively breaking NLR DURING the war, assuming that you have a shootout, there’s no question there has to be a change to the rule, no way can it be left alone. I agree with you that non official gangs should be able to declare war. However regarding the chaos I do believe if NLR was amended yes there would be some more shooting but not to the extent you claim. There is not as many people as there used to be due to a 40 member cap and the fact that Los Zetas disbanded, when referencing the WCA war. You also have to remember if the NLR rule was tweaked to how we want it outside of war, shootouts would not be 60v60. And if they are this wouldn’t be a daily occurrence, conflict is bound to happen we want it to be long term not dissolved instantly. These recent rule implements have been no doubt to increase the realism and immersion an example being the NRP robbery rules. If we are all about realism how is fair to limit long term gang conflict to one shootout, something that happens daily in real life?

Edited September 29, 2020 by Rekamon

[HaNd]

Good idea +1

[Zion Willard]

 

Removing the NLR rule, or adjusting it to allow for permanent conflict within the current would cause nothing but chaos on the server, as we've seen the past week.

The issue is that RAGE doesn't really currently support that many players in one spot, and gangs grew drastically since the old days. We all remember the last auction event; We all remember the WCA+Dojin vs Council War. We would have 30-40 people crashing every fight, then LSPD got involved at the grove fight, and literally half of all the people there crashed. You simply can't have that many players in a small area for a shootout. This is on top of the fact that you now got literally all law enforcement, and all MD units dedicated to a single event on the server, for maybe even an hour (as the scenes drag on). Someone that injured himself on his motorbike? He's not getting any help. You're effectively taking the server hostage whenever you want to have a large shootout. Even if LSPD is not initially involved, it's very common that people will call MD to report gunshot wounds, and PD/SD respond anyway.

You've named the NLA v WCA conflict. Here's the difference though, that was a conflict between two growing gangs. We had at most, 30 people at one fight (total, not each side). And those were about once in the early EU, and one late NA. It wasn't non-stop fighting. NLA even kept hosting their church meetings, and for the most part, those events went on without attack. Vory did join at one point, and it turned into a 2v3, but even those fights did not come close to the amount of people involved in the current fights in the server, and it didn't last, and we went back to a 1v1.

If you wish to support shootouts/fighting as a healthy things for gangs, I might even be in favor of that, however, not in the current rule-set.

I would keep NLR the way it is right now, to stop random conflicts from happening, and I would make the following changes:

• I would allow civilian (factions with handlers that are not official) to file a war application against another gang.
• There would be no allies allowed in the actual fighting.

This would allow for the WCA x NLA fighting that you remember, and for the Zeta x Seaweed fight. What it would not allow for however, is GangA + GangB + GangC + GangD vs GangE + GangF. 

So what's the point of allies then? There is still a very strong point to allies, just like there is in real-life. I noticed that you referenced real-life. When was the last time you saw two gangs fighting, and a third jumped in the actual fighting? like on the streets? It's not a thing that happens. What an ally/friendly person would offer a gang fighting would be logistical support, and that would transfer well in our server.

For example, if Gang A is fighting Gang B, and I'm friendly with Gang A? I can provide Gang A weapons at lower prices compared to Gang B, or even threaten the other gangs to not sell any weapons to Gang B or they will ruin relations with us. If they are official, I can provide them with vehicles to chop, and drugs to sell, so they can win the influence battle over turfs. I can provide them with information about the enemy, even infiltrate them and leak frequency to my allies. I can do a lot of things, just not partake into the fighting directly.

This would allow fights to become more common, but without disrupting the whole server when they happen. As they will at most be a 30v30 (and even those numbers are ambitious due to timezone differences). 

Do you ever fact check a single thing you say? Maybe do the smallest amount of research before you try to describe how the real world works. Dissolving gang v. gang conflict after one shootout makes no sense. Among other sources, maybe give this a read... https://chicagoganghistory.com/street-gang-alliance-guide/ 

[Jack Colenta]

+1 Agree 100%

[alexalex303]

 

Do you ever fact check a single thing you say? Maybe do the smallest amount of research before you try to describe how the real world works. Dissolving gang v. gang conflict after one shootout makes no sense. Among other sources, maybe give this a read... https://chicagoganghistory.com/street-gang-alliance-guide/ 

Yes. I do. You're talking about local clusters coming up against a common enemy, I believe in the past pro-council people used to reference the commission. However, you're missing a great part of the story here, all of those people? They were of the same race and same culture. From your own source:

In the year 1964, The Italian greaser gangs in the West Town squashed their differences after they saw an immediate rise of Puerto Rican gangs around them. 

In the year 1966, Black Stone Ranger leader Eugene Hairston established an alliance with 20 other African American street gangs to combat the recently formed Black Disciple Nation. 

In the year 1971, the most powerful white gangs on the northern part of Chicago called a truce as they agreed that too many Puerto Rican gangs were growing larger in their neighborhoods.

Can you find me the story of the mexican gang allying up with the african-american gang to fight the irish gang who is allied with the chinese gang?

[FrankieP]

@alexalex303 has hit the nail right on the head here. So many gang conflicts in ECRP (in the past and ongoing) have made no sense whatsoever and have occurred for literally no reason. When you're gang gets forced to fight 3-4 other gangs, there's quite literally nothing you can do, and when so many gangs are allowed to ally in order to bully smaller gangs for no reason, it becomes difficult and demotivating to actually try strive for official knowing that you can be wiped whenever the bigger gangs get bored.

Too many people on this server are only here to shoot, completely forgetting that it's an RP server. Eclipse has become a deathmatching server on the crim side, which is quite unfortunate given the interesting and detailed RP we've seen in the past.

The NLR rule doesn't need to change, but crims approach to RP does.

[mikebumbum]

 

Yes. I do. You're talking about local clusters coming up against a common enemy, I believe in the past pro-council people used to reference the commission. However, you're missing a great part of the story here, all of those people? They were of the same race and same culture. From your own source:

In the year 1964, The Italian greaser gangs in the West Town squashed their differences after they saw an immediate rise of Puerto Rican gangs around them. 

In the year 1966, Black Stone Ranger leader Eugene Hairston established an alliance with 20 other African American street gangs to combat the recently formed Black Disciple Nation. 

In the year 1971, the most powerful white gangs on the northern part of Chicago called a truce as they agreed that too many Puerto Rican gangs were growing larger in their neighborhoods.

Can you find me the story of the mexican gang allying up with the african-american gang to fight the irish gang who is allied with the chinese gang?

This is the real problem with the Crim side of things everyone either allies up so they cant lose for no real reason or are forced to ally to fight the other groups allying up against them. If gangs actually stuck by themselves which would be realistic it would allow much more story growth for individual gangs. Not only that but all the crims complaining that they are bored would get much more conflict that would make sense towards their gangs story.

Speaking from my own perspective in WCA we had realistic reasons and stories behind all the wars we partook in besides the ones we were forced into by the huge allied force (Just for the sole purpose to be able to stay enjoying playing on the server together as a group). You can look at our faction thread to back that claim as we had pages and pages of backstory for the events that took place. We also attempted to stay away from allying anyone to keep realistic and that ended up being the groups downfall due to the environment on the server.

If criminals took steps like this and didnt just get bored and start fighting random groups especially the groups who have to drag 2-3 other groups in with them causing 100 people fights everyone would enjoy not only crim life more but the server more as well. Personally i dont think the NLR rules are the main problem per say could they be tweaked? yes they arent perfect and staff should definitely listen to the crims perspective on the rules that effect crims most, but i think its more the crim player base's fault being so concerned with winning that they cant just enjoy the game with the faction they chose to be in rather then trying to be part of the 100 man winning alliance.

Edited September 30, 2020 by mikebumbum

[FrankieP]

 

This is the real problem with the Crim side of things everyone either allies up so they cant lose for no real reason or are forced to ally to fight the other groups allying up against them. If gangs actually stuck by themselves which would be realistic it would allow much more story growth for individual gangs. Not only that but all the crims complaining that they are bored would get much more conflict that would make sense.

Speaking from my own perspective in WCA we had realistic reasons and stories behind all the wars we partook in besides the ones we were forced into by the huge allied force (Just for the sole purpose to be able to stay enjoying playing on the server together as a group). You can look at our faction thread to back that claim as we had pages and pages of backstory for the events that took place. We also attempted to stay away from allying anyone to keep realistic and that ended up being the groups downfall due to the environment on the server.

If criminals took steps like this and didnt just get bored and start fighting random groups especially the groups who have to drag 2-3 other groups in with them causing 100 people fights everyone would enjoy not only crim life more but the server more as well. Personally i dont think the NLR rules are the main problem per say could they be tweaked? yes they arent perfect and staff should definitely listen to the crims perspective on the rules that effect crims most, but i think its more the crim player base's fault being so concerned with winning that they cant just enjoy the game with the faction they chose to be in rather then trying to be part of the 100 man winning alliance.

Fax

[KCAJ]

+1 too many restrictions 

[Nexuus]

+1 

New NLR rules remove all future potential RP with an opposing gang / faction, basically meaning no repercussions for said actions if deaths are involved. Furthermore another way to seek protection from rules as we have already seen in the past few days and undoubtedly will be continuously used to ruleplay certain situations in the future. Overall just limits criminal RP once again and limits what we can do as criminals, as currently there is very little to do anyway.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Nexuus

[krooks365]

 

 

This change was already made regarding non-official factions.

 

Factions now only need just handlers to declare an official war. 

 

We had spoken to our handlers about it and there were two posts contradicting themselves. One post was deleted and now being official is no longer a requirement to an official war, only handlers. 

This is the first I have heard about this. I specifically asked faction management about non-official gangs being allowed to submit war apps and was told ONLY official gangs could apply for war. Can this please be further confirmed by a member of faction management as it seems there is differing information out there regarding this.

[Henry Goodman]

+1

[Henry Goodman]

 

@alexalex303 has hit the nail right on the head here. So many gang conflicts in ECRP (in the past and ongoing) have made no sense whatsoever and have occurred for literally no reason. When you're gang gets forced to fight 3-4 other gangs, there's quite literally nothing you can do, and when so many gangs are allowed to ally in order to bully smaller gangs for no reason, it becomes difficult and demotivating to actually try strive for official knowing that you can be wiped whenever the bigger gangs get bored.

Too many people on this server are only here to shoot, completely forgetting that it's an RP server. Eclipse has become a deathmatching server on the crim side, which is quite unfortunate given the interesting and detailed RP we've seen in the past.

The NLR rule doesn't need to change, but crims approach to RP does.

In my opinion it is the gang leader that should work on quality rp provided by his gang, not letting members to gun blaze around all the time but rather bring some quality crim rp to the scene. 

[givejoshamosin]

+1

[Ed Liebenburg]

+1 on the suggestion. If your main problem is with the quality of RP which leads to these shootouts in the first place (as Alex rightfully says), your rules should be curtailed to address that problem itself, and not to essentially delete shootouts from the RP experience entirely, as the current NLR does. Treat the disease, not the symptom.

[ErickzTV]

+1