Addressing the Culprit of Social RP: Player Robberies

[WindEZ]

46 minutes ago, GWXCORE said:

The reason for the rule is a decent one, and it COULD really improve the RP on the server. In principle, it's going to lead to so many ((/b public place! Forums!!!!)) Responses at every robbery. Rob a guy in a back alley at strawberry dropoff? Reported on forums. Rob a guy at the chemical supply store which is off the beaten path and a place where in practice ONLY criminals go? Reported. Rob a guy who stole your car midday on west highway? Reported, even though he initiated criminal action by stealing your car in the first place. And maybe the report is turned down, maybe you eat an NRP. Not worth the risk anymore in my opinion. Ooc rule risk has led me to just never rob anyone ever. Not worth dealing with reports. No one wants to take an L anymore.

The rule is not bad and helps a lot of civilian RP

But yesterday i got shot without demands when we chased them they stopped in a very public place and start trough voicp “ cant rob us here hahhahah” 

Now some people abuse it mixing and ruleplay and destroy the others RP experience . Im talking about people with 20k xp that dont know all the server rules only what is in their best intereset . The rule can use some works also the punishments . 

Edited May 3, 2020 by WindEZ

[Gekko]

13 minutes ago, WindEZ said:

The rule is not bad and helps a lot of civilian RP

But yesterday i got shot without demands when we chased them they stopped in a very public place and start trough voicp “ cant rob us here hahhahah” 

Now some people abuse it mixing and ruleplay and destroy the others RP experience . Im talking about people with 20k xp that dont know all the server rules only what is in their best intereset . The rule can use some works also the punishments . 

I think the main point of this rule is to stop random robbing where you basicly just creep on someone alone and you lose all of your stuff. And one could argue that if person commited a crime before as a gang member you will revenge not for the purpouse to rob them but to punish them to have your gang respect on the streets and eventually that will still class as taking his stuff but it's not the same as a robbery.

Although admins definately needs to adress this.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Gekko

[Ezrya]

9 minutes ago, WindEZ said:

The rule is not bad and helps a lot of civilian RP

But yesterday i got shot without demands when we chased them they stopped in a very public place and start trough voicp “ cant rob us here hahhahah” 

Now some people abuse it mixing and ruleplay and destroy the others RP experience . Im talking about people with 20k xp that dont know all the server rules only what is in their best intereset . The rule can use some works also the punishments . 

Agree with this, while the rule is for good reasons and I'm glad a rule like this exists now, it could still use some work. Lately I have seen a lot of ruleplay happening, many chases have just led to people going from chop shop for example to a public place then just saying "Can't rob me here it's a public place". It's essentially being used as extra NCZ's for protection by criminals.

[moment]

2 hours ago, Ezrya said:

Agree with this, while the rule is for good reasons and I'm glad a rule like this exists now, it could still use some work. Lately I have seen a lot of ruleplay happening, many chases have just led to people going from chop shop for example to a public place then just saying "Can't rob me here it's a public place". It's essentially being used as extra NCZ's for protection by criminals.

As Kanna stated, it presented good things such a highly public places to be maintained in a chill environment such as gas stations/clothing stores/parking lots. However this rule is killing criminal RP and making life easier for people, which that not how it should be. Drop-off should can be robbed under any circumstances, a criminal in real life there's no such thing as high risk low reward. If the criminal is part of an organization with big sufficient funds that can maintain himself with heavy weaponry and a guy insults the criminal gets insulted on the streets he gets taken care of with the proper outcome. Not to mention there's many criminals who participate in hit n' robberies.  It's our CHOICE to know what risk we take and how to play the scenario, we don't a rule that tells us which, with and how to do a robbery. That's why PD is there so if we commit a robbery we got punished for it, not a goddamn rule. Sorry to say but many ooc and ruleplay is taking place and it's ruining the criminal life and the fun of it and at this point it's getting ridiculously annoying. Hope it will be adjusted accordingly for crews/major gangs in the server.

Edited May 3, 2020 by PhenomenalX

[Cyrus Raven]

19 minutes ago, PhenomenalX said:

As Kanna stated, it presented good things such a highly public places to be maintained in a chill environment such as gas stations/clothing stores/parking lots. However this rule is killing criminal RP and making life easier for people, which that not how it should be. Drop-off should can be robbed under any circumstances, a criminal in real life there's no such thing as high risk low reward. If the criminal is part of an organization with big sufficient funds that can maintain himself with heavy weaponry and a guy insults the criminal gets insulted on the streets he gets taken care of with the proper outcome. Not to mention there's many criminals who participate in hit n' robberies.  It's our CHOICE to know what risk we take and how to play the scenario, we don't a rule that tells us which, with and how to do a robbery. That's why PD is there so if we commit a robbery we got punished for it, not a goddamn rule. Sorry to say but many ooc and ruleplay is taking place and it's ruining the criminal life and the fun of it and at this point it's getting ridiculously annoying. Hope it will be adjusted accordingly for crews/major gangs in the server.

This is the same base argument economists use for ''free market capitalism'', I won't bore you with the details, but it essentially boils down to ''The market will decide everything'', but as anyone will notice, there will be things that can't be handled and thus need regulation (in RL it's things such as pollution and in Eclipse it's things like DM rules and FearRP rules). All of this to say that, having ''free choice'' over your actions is a nice fairy tail, but it leads to chaos in the case of an RP server.

 

The reason why such rules are in place is because people weren't able to critically think about what would be realistic or not. So to say ''It's our CHOICE to know what risk we take and how to play the scenario, we don't a rule that tells us which, with and how to do a robbery.'' is naive. If no rules with regards to robberies existed (e.x NCZ) then people would surely commit crimes in these areas, it's just the nature of such a game, people will abuse and take advantage of gaps in rules for their own benefit or entertainment. Giving you a choice is good, but there has to be restrictions and limitations because otherwise everyone will run around robbing people everywhere and anywhere with no regard for realism, which is what we are trying to achieve in Eclipse. 

''However this rule is killing criminal RP and making life easier for people'' - It isn't killing criminal RP, it's getting rid of lazy criminals, forcing you to consider the risk and reward of your actions in public places while giving you a nudge towards the right direction by forcing you to think smart and avoid robberies in the middle of broad daylight in places where realistically there would be a low chance of people getting robbed. However, this isn't to say that all robberies are outlawed. If it makes RP sense and planning goes into it I am sure staff is willing to accommodate your RP. But for the broader player base, this is a right step in avoiding shitty role-play.

As for ruleplay by others given the new rule, that definitely sucks, but I think it is something that can be achieved with slight modifications to the rules as mentioned by FatherOsborn, I don't think scraping the rules is the way to go.

Edited May 3, 2020 by Kyle White Raven

[moment]

8 minutes ago, Kyle White Raven said:

This is the same base argument ecnonmists use for ''free market capitalism'', I won't bore you with the details, but it essentially boils down to ''The market will decide everything'', but as anyone will notice, there will be things that can't be handled and thus need regulation (in RL it's things such as pollution and in Eclipse it's things like DM rules and FearRP rules).

 

The reason why such rules are in place is because people weren't able to critically think about what would be realistic or not. So to say ''It's our CHOICE to know what risk we take and how to play the scenario, we don't a rule that tells us which, with and how to do a robbery.'' is naive. If no rules with regards to robberies existed (e.x NCZ) then people would surely commit crimes in these areas, it's just the nature of such a game, people will abuse and take advantage of gaps in rules for their own benefit or entertainment. Giving you a choice is good, but there has to be restrictions and limitations because otherwise everyone will run around robbing people everywhere and anywhere with no regard for realism, which is what we are trying to achieve in Eclipse. 

''However this rule is killing criminal RP and making life easier for people'' - It isn't killing criminal RP, it's getting rid of lazy criminals, forcing you to consider the risk and reward of your actions in public places while giving you a nudge towards the right direction by forcing you to think smart and avoid robberies in the middle of broad daylight in places where realistically there would be a low chance of people getting robbed. However, this isn't to say that all robberies are outlawed. If it makes RP sense and planning goes into it I am sure staff is willing to accommodate your RP. But for the broader player base, this is a right step in avoiding shitty role-play.

As for ruleplay by others given the new rule, that definitely sucks, but I think it is something that can be achieved with slight modifications to the rules as mentioned by FatherOsborn, I don't think scraping the rules is the way to go.

What are you saying? You think people in a known or high organizations just waltz in a robbery, we take the necessity such as a mobile vehicle and where to park it, when a robbery starts. You cannot just put an NCZ in every street parking alot or stuff like that as I said i understand the common public places such as parking lots/clothing stores/gas stations is totally fine but other else no, sorry if you get me wrong but if i can take specific items that benefit me and don't get caught I should be able to do it and no this has nothing to do with "lazy criminals". In 4 months of roleplaying as a criminal I have never stopped on the highway to commit a robbery or shit like that, most crim organizations are not stupid, it's common sense it's took place then mostly they went to jail most of the time, as I said PD is there to punish us for the outcome of those silly robbery actions, not a rule. You are a civilian you can role play how you want and criminal role plays how he wants, it's his responsibility for his actions with following the server rules. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by PhenomenalX

[Cyrus Raven]

1 minute ago, PhenomenalX said:

What are you saying? You think people in a known or high organizations just waltz in a robbery, we take the necessity such as a mobile vehicle and where to park it, when a robbery starts. You cannot just put an NCZ in every street parking alot or stuff like that as I said i understand the common public places such as parking lots/clothing stores/gas stations is totally fine but other else no, sorry if you get me wrong but if i can the specific items that benefit me and don't get caught I should be able to do it and no this has nothing to do with "lazy criminals". In 4 months of roleplaying as a criminal I have never stopped on the highway to commit a robbery or shit like that, most crim organizations are not stupid, it's common sense it's took place then mostly they went to jail most of the time, as I said PD is there to punish us for the outcome of those silly robbery actions, not a rule. You are a civilian you can role play how you want and criminal role plays how he wants, it's his responsibility for his actions with following the server rules. 

'' i understand the common public places such as parking lots/clothing stores/gas stations is totally fine but other else no''

What locations would you consider realistic to rob that are out of bounds because of the new rules ?

[Cyrus Raven]

Just now, GWXCORE said:

I'm fine with Gary and Audrey from Bayview being safe from getting robbed with these new rules as an example. Where the issue arises is when Stan and Susan from the 4th failed revival of LC run from chopshop to sit outside weazel news, and use it as a defacto NCZ to escape being robbed of their chopshop money. It's bad RP, it sucked when they did it to NCZs, and now half the map is defacto NCZ during the day

That sucks for sure, something I would change, but I am also fairly certain you can report people doing that for Non-RP as it is essentially seen as abusing rules to get away from your attackers, just like an NCZ.

[moment]

@Kyle White Raven So you're telling me now I cannot rob a player with my heavy because he has .50 pistol only? No it cannot be this way, I worked and grinded my ass off to protect myself with a higher weaponry. There's no need for this high risk low reward thing. This rule should have only been applied in the places I mentioned before, fullstop

Edited May 3, 2020 by PhenomenalX

[Cyrus Raven]

2 minutes ago, PhenomenalX said:

@Kyle White Raven So you're telling me now I cannot rob a player with my heavy because he has .50 pistol only? No it cannot be this way, I worked and grinded my ass off to protect myself with a higher weaponry. There's no need for this high risk low reward thing. This rule should have only been applied in the places I mentioned before, fullstop

I just asked a simple question. What locations do you think you should be able to rob people at, but can't because of the new rule ?

[moment]

1 minute ago, Kyle White Raven said:

I just asked a simple question. What locations do you think you should be able to rob people at, but can't because of the new rule ?

Thats common sense, then one's where are not populated? Where small groups and or other people hangout. I don't need to answer it. Instance for example in abandoned hotel parking lot shouldn't be classified an open street. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by PhenomenalX

[Cyrus Raven]

3 minutes ago, PhenomenalX said:

Thats common sense, then one's where are not populated? Where small groups and or other people hangout. I don't need to answer it. Instance for example in abandoned hotel parking lot shouldn't be classified an open street. 

I agree with you. I wouldn't go as far as to say populated places like ore drop-offs should be allowed. But abandoned structures and places where a small part of the server goes too, should be allowed.

[moment]

1 hour ago, GWXCORE said:

Honestly, they should have exempted repeat active criminals from the rule completely. Would have fixed every thing in my opinion

My man you couldn't have said it any better, props 

[Ezrya]

8 hours ago, Kyle White Raven said:

However this rule is killing criminal RP and making life easier for people'' - It isn't killing criminal RP, it's getting rid of lazy criminals

You clearly don't play criminal and haven't had to deal with the 6th person today running from doing criminal activity to a populated area and proceeding to say IC "can't rob me here it's populated" then proceeding to taunt larger gangs knowing they are protected by OOC rules. How is this not affecting criminal RP in a negative way? No one is necessarily arguing against the rule we have all said its definitely a step in the right direction, we are simply just pointing out some flaws within the rule that's leading to a large amount of ruleplay. Criminals abusing NCZ's for protection was already affecting crim RP this is just making that a lot worse on the criminal side of things and feel like something needs to be done about it or addressed. 

[RAttlesnake7473]

33 minutes ago, Ezrya said:

You clearly don't play criminal and haven't had to deal with the 6th person today running from doing criminal activity to a populated area and proceeding to say IC "can't rob me here it's populated" then proceeding to taunt larger gangs knowing they are protected by OOC rules. How is this not affecting criminal RP in a negative way? No one is necessarily arguing against the rule we have all said its definitely a step in the right direction, we are simply just pointing out some flaws within the rule that's leading to a large amount of ruleplay. Criminals abusing NCZ's for protection was already affecting crim RP this is just making that a lot worse on the criminal side of things and feel like something needs to be done about it or addressed. 

Agreed I've witnessed about 5 people today running to a public road or area then taunting me saying I cant do anything. 

[CaesarSeizure]

6 hours ago, RAttlesnake7473 said:

Agreed I've witnessed about 5 people today running to a public road or area then taunting me saying I cant do anything. 

I think at that point you do have an IC reason to rob the person and maybe even more, as taunting gangs is not the smartest move and shows a clear disregard for their own safety. I think these interactions should always be reported as it is showing a clear breach of FRP and ruleplay over roleplay.

[Jonny D]

I feel the people complaining about the rule don't fully understand RP, "People are now taunting me in a public area saying I can't rob them"

 

What is fun about shallow 1min robberies in which a person taunts you and you tell them to put their hands up? If somebody has disrespected you or your gang in a meaningful way take it as an opportunity to create a deeper RP scenario. Report back to fellow gang members about the situation and create a plan with your IC motives. Tail the person from afar until they are in a less populated area. Lure the person out by having another party call their phone and setup a meeting. Find other IC connections of this person and use it to exploit them.

 

When you're robbing someone, it is my opinion that your main OOC motive should not be to get more in game resources. Your main motive for a robbery (and all scenarios really) should be to have a fun RP interaction with all parties involved (even the person being robbed). I feel too often we approach interactions from the OOC mindset of "I need to win this scenario and get phat lewt at all cost" rather than "What can I do to make interesting/fun RP".

 

The purpose of this rule is to crack down on the overdone shallow "hands up" scenario that destroys the RP environment. If you want to rob somebody, this rule still allows it. It just forces you to do it in a deeper more IC meaningful and realistic way. This rule facilitates deeper RP and thus I fully support it.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jonny D

[FrankieP]

So unfair that I can't continue playing an rpless character that revolves around robbing randoms for their gps and radio in the middle of the street for no reason. Cheers, son's crying.

[apologisemeow]

I was against this rule at first but honestly it still has some issues to iron out but overall i for one am happy just to be able to chill in the street without two guys on a bf400 robbing me every time i turn my back.

[justpositivity]

I love this new change!

[justpositivity]

.

[TheCannon410]

As a relatively new player to the server, this rule seems to me to be a tremendous decision. I very much enjoy being able to roam the streets freely, as I should be able to RPly, while still having to take caution in dangerous areas like when I'm deep in the mines or forests.

[MikeyyyG]

On 4/27/2020 at 9:18 PM, FatherOsborn said:

Hey man.

We're definitely aware that this will need some time to adapt and understand, staff will definitely not issue permanent bans around this particular change unless absolutely required for some period. We are here to educate, and we don't always issue punishments - nowadays, we try to teach our staff to handle situations case by case basis. It's very possible for wordings to be changed and clarifications to be made later down the road, but as Aldari said, it was our intention to keep this vague to allow for player imagination, rather than creating another set of rules that players will ruleplay around. 

We understand that this is how robberies have previously been done on Eclipse since its birth. But we believe that our official,unofficial factions, and active community members will adapt to this and be guided in the right direction, so that they later can be ambassadors for newer players who might need guidance and direction. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by MikeyyyG

[Osborn]

13 minutes ago, MikeyyyG said:

 

 

"unless absolutely required for some period. " I guess you must've missed this.

The player is more than welcome to post a punishment appeal following the process we have put in place and we will determine whether he in fact violated the rule (if he disagrees with that part), or whether the punishment in question wasn't necessary, as we always do. 

Edit:

With that being said, I will go ahead and lock this topic as it has now been two weeks since the rule was implemented and the staff team will continue to review the rule and the response to it for the next few weeks during our staff meetings.