ID Helsinki [141] DM

[Marvin2341]

Player(s) being reported: Helsinki
Date of interaction reported: 18.02.2020
Unix time stamp from HUD: 1582044729

Your characters name: Zeiwa_Gueye

Other player(s) involved: ID 32

Specific rule(s) broken:

14. Deathmatch (DM)

• Deathmatching is the act of attacking a player without a proper roleplay reason and interaction.

• Examples of valid reasons to attack another player:

• If they attempt to arrest or hurt you, an ally, or damage your property.

• If they report you to the police for a serious crime.

• If they are not in compliance with plausible demands, attempt to escape, or call backup.

• A player cannot kill their victim if the victim is in compliance with the demands.

• A player must allow their victim enough time to comply with the demands.

• If a player informs you that your VOIP isn’t working, you must either fix your VOIP using appropriate commands or use text to deliver your demand(s).

• Vehicles cannot be used to attack a player on foot more than once, including a failed attempt.

• Killing a player that has obeyed all orders and demands during a roleplay situation is allowed, with roleplay, only within 3 hours of:

  1.  Severe hostile or criminal action is taken against you, e.g. someone is robbing you at gunpoint. (Excluding police aiming a gun at you.)

  2.   Someone is attempting to take your life.

  3.   Someone is attempting to take the life of your close friend or ally, or if you have witnessed it happen.

• You must explain your reason to kill to the player IC and have OOC evidence proving your reason.

How did the player break the rule(s)?

Me and my friends were just checking labs, when all of the sudden a blue Comet Retro pulled up with 2 passengers.ID 141 then decided to aim a Micro-Uzi at me telling me to step out of the vehicle so I promptly stepped out of the car with my hands up.What ensued was a small shootout between my friends and the 2 passengers in the Blue Comet Retro.In the video evidence below you can see that at  0:10 I get back in my car due to the fact, that I thought that they were gonna leave, seeing as they are not facing us at that point of time.Then, I see them coming back for another driveby, killing one my friends.After the second driveby attempt from the Blue Comet Retro I see them leave again, thinking they were gonna leave this time but Instead they come back for one last time somehow ramming me with their Comet Retro In the process and Killing my friend.At that point In the video (0:29) you can see me step out of the car and repeatedly saying, "I have my hands up" to which Helsinki responds with shooting me.
Evidence of rule breach:

https://streamable.com/ar2tf-DM Incident

Evidence of me Informing Helsinki about the post:

https://imgur.com/a/1ZD6gP8

[Aldarine]

Thank you for making this player report.

This report is pending review from myself. I will be with you shortly!

Best Regards,

Aldarine

[Aldarine]

Thank you for your patience as I reviewed the report. Prior to concluding this report, I would like to hear statements from the players as specified below. 

Norix_Helsinki | ID 141 @Berlin - Please provide your point of view in regards to the situation being reported. Along with this, I would like to specifically know why, at the end of the submitted video when the reporting party still had this hands up and informed you of this, did you fire upon him and subsequently injure him. As always, should you have any footage of your perspective, it would be much appreciated.

The above mentioned players will be notified in game as appropriate and will receive 24 hours to provide their side of the story. We look forward to hearing back from you!

Best Regards,

Aldarine

[Berlin]

Norix_Helsinki (ID 141)  here.

We saw a black schafter with 3 people, 2 of them had black outfits so we thought they might be rooks as we are in war with them ICly.

I gave them clear demands to step out of the vehicle while i was pointing a Micro SMG from close range and also we were not moving. The reporting party (Driver) complied with my demands and got out with his hands up BUT 2 of the passengers decided to OPEN FIRE ON US FIRST , then i started to spray their car with my micro, we went away from the situation for few seconds so i could call for backup and reload my gun.

We came back and saw the reporting party INSIDE HIS CAR TRYING TO TURN ON THE ENGINE , even tho i gave him demands to step out. HE TRIED TO FLEE TWICE AND DISOBEYED DEMANDS. However after he found out that the engine is stalled, he had no choice but to comply again (Since he didn't have a gun)

He was part of an ACTIVE SHOOTOUT and i believe i already had rights to shoot him as it says in DM RULE

Hes intentions were to harm me or my ally in this situation

in the end, I want to add that he didn't have his hands up on my screen (DESYNC) and thought he wants to shoot us.

in RAGE MP, If someone hops in a car with his hands up, others wont see him with his hands up anymore after hes INSIDE the car.

 

 

 

Please let me know if further input is required.

Norix Helsinki

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Berlin

[Aldarine]

@Berlin - Thank you for the prompt reply. If you would be so kind, I would like to hear your response in regards to the following:

1. The driver of the vehicle stepped out, hands up, and complied with demands while being held at gunpoint. Following this he was the subject of crossfire due to initial engagement by his passengers. Your driver then proceeded to drive away from the scene, to which the reporting party got back into his vehicle and seemingly attempted to remove himself from a situation where he was getting harmed. After he is unable to leave, he once again exits the vehicle, hands still up (in his perspective). This occurs twice and only after you and your driver move a significant distance away. Looking back on this, do you believe the driver was intending to cause you any harm in this situation or is it plausible that he was trying to protect himself?

2. Do you believe your demands for him to get out of the vehicle are still valid following you and your driver moving a fair distance and not having the driver under close range gunpoint?

3. Do you believe that the driver should have remained standing in his exact positioning and not try to shield himself or exit the scene and remain the victim of crossfire?

4. At what point in time did you believe the driver of the vehicle was intending to harm you and your ally as you claim in your statement?

5. Do you believe that there could have been an alternate end to this scene when the reporting party stated "I've got my hands up" at the end of the submitted video especially considering, per your statement, he did not have a gun?

I look forward to your responses.

[Berlin]

@Aldarine Thank you for reviewing this, here are my answers:

1) The driver attempted to get out, and make us believe he was surrendering, it was in these seconds that his passengers used this as a window to attack us. The driver then attempted to get back in and help them in the scene , instead of getting down / running off, making me feel that they all share the same intentions , minus the driver himself having a weapon which is not realized until after

2) I believe the demands would still be VALID , as heavy weapon fire is going off and we would expect him to be fearful for his life, running away from the situation, instead of turning back to try and get in the vehicle TWICE actively inserting him at the target that is being shot.

3) I believe the driver should have ran off, or got low to the ground instead of trying to insert himself into a vehicle being sprayed by weapons, sheltering the people that are in fact trying to kill you.

4) I believe the driver to be assisting them in trying to flee, as well as setting up the initial ambush of surrendering. his friends obviously OPENED FIRE on us.

5) I could have left him alive, as he was compliant, but it was in the heat of the moment that we delivered the same treatment to him as his friends attempting to kill us, for trying to aid them and not disconnecting himself from the situation having multiple chances to do so.

 

Also i believe these screenshots prove my statement about not seeing his hands being up, thinking he is going to take out a weapon and harm us.

He couldn't start the engine and hopped out as he was under Fear RP. 

And then not having his hands up in my screen, looking like he has a gun in hand and will try to shoot my ally

Edited February 19, 2020 by Berlin

[Aldarine]

@Berlin - Thank you once again for your prompt and thorough response. My final question for you is as follows:

Many of your answers as well as actions seem to rely on this idea of assumption of intent as well as what occurs in the heat of the moment. Considering this assumption and quick action can lead to misplaced actions, do you feel there are things you could improve on for future situations, regardless of the outcome of this report.

@Marvin2341 - After reading over the replies from the reporting party to my line of questioning, I would like to ask you one question prior to concluding this report:

Do you believe your actions could have been altered in this reported situation (mainly focusing on the attempts to start the vehicle and exit the scene)?

I look forward to responses from both parties.

[Berlin]

@Aldarine Yes i do believe i did go a little quick in this situation but i'm gonna take it as a learning experience so i can improve and make sure this won't happen again.

I'd also like to apologise to the reporting party for any inconvenience this report has caused on his end, i appreciate being understanding and assure you it will not happen again.

 

Norix Helsinki

[Marvin2341]

5 hours ago, Aldarine said:

@Berlin - Thank you once again for your prompt and thorough response. My final question for you is as follows:

Many of your answers as well as actions seem to rely on this idea of assumption of intent as well as what occurs in the heat of the moment. Considering this assumption and quick action can lead to misplaced actions, do you feel there are things you could improve on for future situations, regardless of the outcome of this report.

@Marvin2341 - After reading over the replies from the reporting party to my line of questioning, I would like to ask you one question prior to concluding this report:

Do you believe your actions could have been altered in this reported situation (mainly focusing on the attempts to start the vehicle and exit the scene)?

I look forward to responses from both parties.

I would love to state my side, but It would have to be at a later time today since I am busy  ((work IRL)) atm,

sorry for this inconvenience.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Marvin2341

[Marvin2341]

15 hours ago, Aldarine said:

@Berlin - Thank you once again for your prompt and thorough response. My final question for you is as follows:

Many of your answers as well as actions seem to rely on this idea of assumption of intent as well as what occurs in the heat of the moment. Considering this assumption and quick action can lead to misplaced actions, do you feel there are things you could improve on for future situations, regardless of the outcome of this report.

@Marvin2341 - After reading over the replies from the reporting party to my line of questioning, I would like to ask you one question prior to concluding this report:

Do you believe your actions could have been altered in this reported situation (mainly focusing on the attempts to start the vehicle and exit the scene)?

I look forward to responses from both parties.

@Aldarine I do not think my actions could have been altered, reffering to me trying to get out of the situation by trying to start my car and getting to safety, mainly because first of all you can clearly see in the video, that I provided, that there was no other large object I could have possibly used as cover for shielding myself from the bullets.You have to remeber that this took place in the middle of a road in Blaine County and I was only surrounded by sand and dust, so basically there was nothing I could have used as cover instead of my Schafter V12 in my opnion, at that specific time.I also strongly believe that my attempts of exiting the scene could have not been altered, due to the fact that the Schafter V12 was the best option at the time to leave as fast as possible with the most amount of protection in my opinion.

Also I would like to point out a couple of things I noticed before ending this response.Firstly I want to say that although @Berlin answered all of the questions I would like for @Aldarine to pay close attention to the fourth and the fifth questions and both his initail answers,which originaly state "At what point in time did you believe the driver of the vehicle was intending to harm you and your ally as you claim in your statement?"and"Do you believe that there could have been an alternate end to this scene when the reporting party stated "I've got my hands up" at the end of the submitted video especially considering, per your statement, he did not have a gun?"-Aldarine.And the initial answers that stated "I believe the driver to be assisting them in trying to leave, as well as setting up the initial ambush of surrendering. his friends obviously OPENED FIRE on us."aswell as "I could have left him alive, as he was compliant, but it was in the heat of the moment that we delivered the same treatment to him as his friends attempting to kill us, for trying to aid them and not disconnecting himself from the situation having multiple chances to do so."-Berlin.First I would like to start of by saying that Berlin did not have a reasonable response in my opinion, then when being asked;"did you believe the driver of the vehicle was intending to harm you and your ally as you claim in your statement?", to which he responds with saying "I believe the driver to be assisting them in trying to flee, as well as setting up the initial ambush of surrendering...".So what he is saying is, that I plotted an ambush to harm his ally, even though they were the ones that drove up to us initiating a fire fight in the first place((Link to extended clip https://streamable.com/8ss5m)).And another point I want to stress is him saying that I was supposedly "assisting them" in trying to flee, which I do not agree with.Based on the fact that in the clip, which I shared I never once mentioned or said anything along the lines of "Get in the car!" or "Let's leave!" nor did I try to help them in any way, e.g picking up a gun and defending them.You can even see when ID 12 is telling me;"Go,Go,Go!" I turn him down Informing him that the car has stalled and subsequently after telling him that I step out of the vehicle.Later on and throughout the video you can also observe, me trying to distance myself from the people I was in the car with by getting in the car and trying to get away from the situation.At this point in my opinion you can clearly see the only argument that he really has for Killing me without hesitaion,even though I complied and also was screaming "I have my hands up!", is "It was in the heat of the moment", which I personally think is not a sufficient enough of a reason for something so detrimental as DM'ing and therefore should not be justified.

Lastly, I want to thank Aldarine and Berlin for their time, that they have dedicated to this thread.

 

Kind regards, Marvin2341

 

17 hours ago, Berlin said:

@Aldarine Thank you for reviewing this, here are my answers:

1) The driver attempted to get out, and make us believe he was surrendering, it was in these seconds that his passengers used this as a window to attack us. The driver then attempted to get back in and help them in the scene , instead of getting down / running off, making me feel that they all share the same intentions , minus the driver himself having a weapon which is not realized until after

2) I believe the demands would still be VALID , as heavy weapon fire is going off and we would expect him to be fearful for his life, running away from the situation, instead of turning back to try and get in the vehicle TWICE actively inserting him at the target that is being shot.

3) I believe the driver should have ran off, or got low to the ground instead of trying to insert himself into a vehicle being sprayed by weapons, sheltering the people that are in fact trying to kill you.

4) I believe the driver to be assisting them in trying to flee, as well as setting up the initial ambush of surrendering. his friends obviously OPENED FIRE on us.

5) I could have left him alive, as he was compliant, but it was in the heat of the moment that we delivered the same treatment to him as his friends attempting to kill us, for trying to aid them and not disconnecting himself from the situation having multiple chances to do so.

 

Also i believe these screenshots prove my statement about not seeing his hands being up, thinking he is going to take out a weapon and harm us.

He couldn't start the engine and hopped out as he was under Fear RP. 

And then not having his hands up in my screen, looking like he has a gun in hand and will try to shoot my ally

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Marvin2341

[Aldarine]

Thank you to the reporting and reported parties for prompt and detailed responses. Your commentary has been noted and that segment of this report will be concluded shortly.

As a separate note from that, can the below player please provide me with an explanation for the following:

Sasha_Vasilyev @Alpha_WoT - Very simply, why did you believe it to be appropriate to use your vehicle to ram, full force, into the reporting party's car? Are you aware of the estimated value of your vehicle? Do you believe this action to be keeping in mind the value of your property?

Following your statement, this report will be concluded. Thank you in advance for your response.

[Alpha]

Hello, sorry i did not keep up with this report, thanks for the tag @Aldarine First of all i would like so say on my screen the ID 12 if im not mistaken was on the other side of the car, so i wanted to ram him and not risk our lives anymore since he was a part in that whole shootout, but since the desync was so bad you can see me hitting the schafter and not just stalling but i actually just went through him and stopped in the side, after the last guy was downed you can see in the very very end of the video i was trying to finish him but im shooting the cars bonet since the car was so badly desynced it, for me it showed he was on the ground beside the car but he was actually underneath it. But never the less, ID 12 informed me straight away after the incident that it was non rp and i did not value my car, and i apologized for it, and i feel like we sorted it out ingame since i was not tagged in the report by the reporting party, i added a picture of PM's i sent and received from ID 12 at the bottom. 

Once again, im very sorry for the decision i made, and if it was or wasnt desynced, its only my bad valuation of situation and quick call that made me do what i did. 

[Aldarine]

First I would like to say thank you for making this report as well as give a sincere thank you to all parties for their prompt and detailed responses. Following extensive review of evidence, statements, as well as input of fellow staff, this report will be concluded as follows:

Player Norix_Helsinki will receive a Deathmatching punishment for the reported incident. 

First I would like to review what can be seen in the video evidence provided by the reporting party. At the start, the reported player can be seen aiming a firearm at the reporting party and demands he exit the vehicle. The reporting party complies with said demands and exits this vehicle with his hands held up. At this time, the other occupants of the vehicle begin engaging by aiming/firing to which the reported party responds with gunfire of his own. At this time the reporting party is an unfortunate victim of crossfire but still maintains his life. Norix_Helsinki and his ally then back away from the engagement and the reporting party is no longer being held at direct gunpoint and subsequently attempts to leave the scene to which he is unable due to his vehicle being stalled. Slightly later in the video the reported party once again attempts to leave the scene via his vehicle but is again unable to due to vehicular damage. Following a ram from the Comet, the 2 original passengers of the reported party's vehicle who were the only ones engaging are injured. The reported party then steps out of his vehicle, hands raised, and is shot by the reported player which ends his life.

This issue that occurs with the scenario stated above is the engagement with the reporting party at the end of the evidence where his life is ended. Per the server rules for Deathmatching, valid reasons to attack another player include an attempt to arrest/hurt you or your ally, a report to police for a serious crime, non compliance with demands, attempting to escape, or calling for backup. During this entire ordeal, the reporting party was placed under Fear RP a total of 1 time at the start of the scene to which he remained compliant. At no point in time throughout the scene was he non-compliant with demands nor did he make an attempt to harm the reported party or his ally. The reporting party simply remained an innocent bystander. The responses provided to detailed questioning on this thread state that actions were based off of assumption of threat and intent without concrete proof of such and it should be noted that Deathmatching rights are not granted based off of assumptions and as such, engagement should have ceased once the 2 players that opened fire were injured. The reporting party made no direct threat to any individuals and should not have been directly attacked. While your responses and apology is appreciated, due to all stated above and the lack of proper reasoning to attack the reporting party within compliance with the Deathmatching rules, this punishment is being issued.

Thank you once again for making this player report.

Report accepted.

Best Regards,
Aldarine