Jay Bacon + The Rest of the PD on Scene - Fail RP

[MrSilky]

Player(s) being reported: Jay Bacon + the rest of the PD on scene, too far to get IDs.

Date of rule breach: 21/09/2018

Time of rule breach: 19:15 UTC+1

Your characters name: Roberto Sanchez

Other players involved: Pedro Luis, James DIngle, Liam McGreggor, Rest of 'Los Diablos' online at the time.

Specific rule broken: 6.6.1 Actions that are unrealistic or promote poor quality roleplay are considered as non-roleplay.

How did the player break the rule?: I'll keep it short - we had a hostage with us as we robbed stored (we had valid reason as he was kicked from our gang and was openly talking shit about us and our gang to others). We RPly zip ties him to a pole in the back room (where no officer can get a visual on him) and had a gun held to his head by one of our gand, told the police we will kill him if they do anything and began the engagement with the police. The police failed to listen to any of our commands and eventually just gunned down everyone in the store.  This is completely FailRP as IRL in hostage situations there are negotiations and officers only act with force if they can guarantee the safety of the hostage. We had an excellent RP situation yesterday with Commander Hamilton and he even PMed me to say how he enjoyed it and that people should follow suit with that kind of RP. As can be seen from the video, everyone died including the hostage and that's just completely unrealistic. After PMing Bacon, it appears the PD acted on orders from a senior officer which therefore resulted in mass FailRP.

Evidence of rule breach: https://plays.tv/s/LuJvnJiPomI6

Edited September 21, 2018 by Roberto_Sanchez

[Jbacon]

I have a full video 18mins long of the entire exchange from when I joined the situation, firstly ICLY we knew that Tom Daniels had been part of your gang, thus were not sure if he was hostage or a decoy, we had a member of PD on the roof of the building, who was able to hear you, thus how we knew that Luna Lei was involved, as a "decoy hostage". You were making unreasonable demands, expecting me to come up to the store, and put myself in the line of fire and life in danger for a cop killer. (tom daniels, who icly I knew was part of your gang) It does not make sense to me to sacrifice myself for a criminal.

From my perspective I will list why we moved how we did.

1.  LSPD doesn't negotiate with terrorists
2. Luna Lei was a fake hostage, how do we know tom wasn't
3. We were not willing to put an officer in danger for the sake of someone who don't knows affiliation. and also has an arrest record 60pages long.
4. Your only demand was for officers to leave... not gonna happen
   1. For me to come to the front of the store... also I'm not gonna put my life in danger instead of Tom. ((fear rp would prevent me doing this))
   2. Those were the only demands made.
5. I had a detective on the roof with listening gear, he was able to relay everything to me and the other officers on scene
6. I was following orders on scene. IT was deemed the best options.

I will submit my video directly to the admin as it contains staff chat. Also please list all members involved. I will add the pd members

Jay Bacon, Marco Davis, Harry Davis, Cynthia Mahoney, Daniel Shelby, James Dalton, Kyle Doherty, Paulo Witherfork, Bobby Baker, Jason Dawson. I think I got them all. Might of missed 1 or 2.

[FireCracker]

5 minutes ago, Jbacon said:

I have a full video 18mins long of the entire exchange from when I joined the situation, firstly ICLY we knew that Tom Daniels had been part of your gang, thus were not sure if he was hostage or a decoy, we had a member of PD on the roof of the building, who was able to hear you, thus how we knew that Luna Lei was involved, as a "decoy hostage". You were making unreasonable demands, expecting me to come up to the store, and put myself in the line of fire and life in danger for a cop killer. (tom daniels, who icly I knew was part of your gang) It does not make sense to me to sacrifice myself for a criminal.

From my perspective I will list why we moved how we did.

1.  LSPD doesn't negotiate with terrorists
2. Luna Lei was a fake hostage, how do we know tom wasn't
3. We were not willing to put an officer in danger for the sake of someone who don't knows affiliation. and also has an arrest record 60pages long.
4. Your only demand was for officers to leave... not gonna happen
   1. For me to come to the front of the store... also I'm not gonna put my life in danger instead of Tom. ((fear rp would prevent me doing this))
   2. Those were the only demands made.
5. I had a detective on the roof with listening gear, he was able to relay everything to me and the other officers on scene
6. I was following orders on scene. IT was deemed the best options.

I will submit my video directly to the admin as it contains staff chat. Also please list all members involved. I will add the pd members

Jay Bacon, Marco Davis, Harry Davis, Cynthia Mahoney, Daniel Shelby, James Dalton, Kyle Doherty, Paulo Witherfork, Bobby Baker, Jason Dawson. I think I got them all. Might of missed 1 or 2.

You yourself admitted your mistake, you didn't know if Tom was a hostage (which he was) so you still made the move and got him killed.

Also the amount of times we demanded you to lower your guns or we'd kill him or harm him and you didn't seem to care.

There is constantly a lack of RP from PD

[Zoloft]

Proof of the roleplay of the listening devices?

[MrSilky]

Your "thoughts" are invalid. A hostage should be treated as a hostage always. Tom was a hostage and your personal opinion caused mass FailRP.

"I had a detective on the roof with listening gear, he was able to relay everything to me and the other officers on scene"

Do I have to pull the metagaming/powergaming reports out also? At what point did anyone RP "listening gear"?

I am not reporting for punishments, I am reporting for education. PD should not require hostage RP training from criminals. You are the IC admins of the server and should uphold the best level of RP at all times.

[FireCracker]

Also to add how did you not know we were faking Luna as a 'fake hostage' if you had listening gear you would of hear me say multiple times "there are cops on the roof"

[Jbacon]

Cops would not lower weapons on people who are armed showing heavy weaponry. Also the point I am explaining is that ICLY my character knows Tom Daniels is a member of your gang, thus I would consider this a ploy to take a cop hostage... which I have police reports stating that your gang has done in previous incidents, thus I would be hesitant to present myself into said situation, as I would be breaching fear RP by doing so.

Please understand that each cop and officer has a different approach to a situation, the fact that this one was held differently then the other is not fail rp it is different RP. 

What was your valid reason for taking Tom Daniels Hostage, because of insult is not valid reason.

I have presented some videos for your consideration concerning hostage situations.

ent 

Please also see the screen shot showing the officer on the roof of your building listening in. You also stated you knew there were cops on the roof... how did you know that without power-gaming or meta-gaming?

 

 

In conclusion I would like to state, that every RP situation is handled differently, each person responds differently to situations, you cant expect myself or Davis to act the same as Hamilton. To expect that would not allow for a diverse amount of rp as every situation would be the same. Also based on previous incidents with your gang impacts how PD responds.

I am sorry that this rp wasn't what you were hopeing for, perhaps instead of only demands, make compromises also on your situations.

[FireCracker]

Firstly you assumed Tom Daniels was with us as you were wrong, so you didn't know. Everyone should be treated equally.

 

Secondly if we tell you we're going to kill an innocent person you would lower your weapons and keep in cover.

 

We were discussing demands and that's why we asked you to step closer to talk one to one.

 

There was so much RP to be had involving Weazel, PD, MD, Criminals and many others yet instead turned into another boring gun fight with cops which everyone knows you cannot win due to how unfairly OP your armor is and the lack of care that you will not lose money on your gun if you go down.

 

We planned this to have a fantastic piece of RP which I feel once again the police just cared about 'winning'

[Zoloft]

Ok so you have a picture of him on the roof, now where is the proof of that officer role-playing using a listening device??

[FireCracker]

1 minute ago, HiVe_Zoloft said:

Ok so you have a picture of him on the roof, now where is the proof of that officer role-playing using a listening device??

Also did he IC'ly and RP'ly obtain the device? Proof?

[Dingus0]

I was the officer on the roof, I had no listening device. I did however clearly hear the conversation outside about fake hostages.

[verydoge12]

1 minute ago, Dingus0 said:

I was the officer on the roof, I had no listening device. I did however clearly hear the conversation outside about fake hostages.

Ehh Im pretty sure you are not supposed to hear it?

[Zoloft]

It's the same situation as if someone roleplayed having their windows up, yes you can actually hear it in-game, however since his Windows are up you wouldn't hear it in a real life scenario in this situation there is a SOLID roof in the way.

[FireCracker]

2 minutes ago, Dingus0 said:

I was the officer on the roof, I had no listening device. I did however clearly hear the conversation outside about fake hostages.

Hold on you guys are mixing your stories up. I only spoke about fake hostages inside. Outside I spoke about cops on roof.

[Zoloft]

Although you can hear this in-game, using this information is considered metagaming as technically you didn't gain this information in character as your character would not be able to hear that without a listening device 

Edited September 21, 2018 by HiVe_Zoloft

[MrSilky]

13 minutes ago, Dingus0 said:

I was the officer on the roof, I had no listening device. I did however clearly hear the conversation outside about fake hostages.

Haha, yikes.

That's the metagaming right there...

The only "fake hostage" was Luna as it made it 2 people being held rather than 1 thus more leverage. This was discussed behind closed doors and no broken windows thus hearing it through the roof is extremely unlikely.

This post has turned around from post requesting more RP education for PD to an actual report with one member of staff caught lying.

Pending senior staff.

[King Tom]

That was the most fun i have had since i joined this city over a year ago. it's a shame that the cops had to cut it short with their rulebreaks, then i get charged for some reason unrelated! nice one cops! 

[MrSilky]

Furthermore, how did @Dingus0 relay the information to you without us OOCly seeing for proof via hearing through proximity or chatbox?

Don't reply with your 'TAC' channels on teamspeak as I know protocol is to talk ICly and in TAC whilst in a TAC situation.

[Flucifial]

I do not really understand how this situation could at all be Fail Roleplay? I'm pretty sure the cops won't just sit there and let you do whatever you want, if they have enough snipers, they will take all the criminals out at once? Maybe there is something I'm missing?

I'm was not involved in this situation, I am the staff member that will handle this report. 

-Flucifial

[Zoloft]

They didn't have enough snipers @Flucifial they completely disregarded the fact that there was 2 hostages (they knew one was fake through metagaming) they had 2 snipers there was maybe 10+ of us.

They're meant to be the police and care about civilian lives, there was 2 civilians in there, which they clearly didn't care about.

[FireCracker]

3 minutes ago, Flucifial said:

I do not really understand how this situation could at all be Fail Roleplay? I'm pretty sure the cops won't just sit there and let you do whatever you want, if they have enough snipers, they will take all the criminals out at once? Maybe there is something I'm missing?

I'm was not involved in this situation, I am the staff member that will handle this report. 

-Flucifial

Because we warned them this would happen:

http://plays.tv/video/5ba537d3207a11d2bc/i-am-sorry-tom

 

Thus not doing their job valuing the innocents life.

[Flucifial]

Just now, FireCracker said:

Because we warned them this would happen:

http://plays.tv/video/5ba537d3207a11d2bc/i-am-sorry-tom

 

Thus not doing their job valuing the innocents life.

You claim they're not doing their job correctly, so, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be an in-character issue rather than a Fail Roleplay accusation?

1 minute ago, HiVe_Zoloft said:

They didn't have enough snipers @Flucifial they completely disregarded the fact that there was 2 hostages (they knew one was fake through metagaming) they had 2 snipers there was maybe 10+ of us.

They're meant to be the police and care about civilian lives, there was 2 civilians in there, which they clearly didn't care about.

Do you have any proof of this metagaming? I still fail to see how this could be Fail Roleplay, this seems like, if anything, a poor IC judgement job by the supervisor on scene. 

[MrSilky]

8 minutes ago, Flucifial said:

I do not really understand how this situation could at all be Fail Roleplay? I'm pretty sure the cops won't just sit there and let you do whatever you want, if they have enough snipers, they will take all the criminals out at once? Maybe there is something I'm missing?

I'm was not involved in this situation, I am the staff member that will handle this report. 

-Flucifial

Hey there,

As stated in the original post, IRL police would only use force when they could guarantee the safety of those held hostage. As we had RPly tied Tom to a pole in a room that officers could not get a visual on with a person holding a gun to his head with the order to kill if shots are fired, they did not have that guarantee. Therefore, an extremely poor RP situation and mass FailRP.

This report was intended to be a publicised plea for PD to get more involved with RP and be more realistic rather than shoot first, ask later.

Here is a screenshot of Commander Hamilton's response after similar RP that happened yesterday where he negotiated with us thus the hostage was unharmed - https://gyazo.com/e88fabf50d6d6de8014301d424e42a72

Finally, this report was not a report to gain punishments on those involved. However, the responding parties have jeopardised themselves and made their OOC rule breaks known beyond what we assumed.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Roberto_Sanchez

[FireCracker]

Just now, Flucifial said:

You claim they're not doing their job correctly, so, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be an in-character issue rather than a Fail Roleplay accusation?

Do you have any proof of this metagaming? I still fail to see how this could be Fail Roleplay, this seems like, if anything, a poor IC judgement job by the supervisor on scene. 

How is this an IC issue when they failed to roleplay in caring for the hostages life.

 

I don't see you scrutinizing them for lying and asking for proof of them using the listening device??

[Flucifial]

2 minutes ago, Roberto_Sanchez said:

Hey there,

As stated in the original post, IRL police would only use force when they could guarantee the safety of those held hostage. As we had RPly ties Tom to a pole in a room that officers could not get a visual on with a person holding a gun to his head with the order to kill if shots are fired, they did not have that guarantee. Therefore, an extremely poor RP situation and mass FailRP.

This report was intended to be a publicised plea for PD to get more involved with RP and be more realistic rather than shoot first, ask later.

Here is a screenshot of Commander Hamilton's response after similar RP that happened yesterday where he negotiated with us thus the hostage was unharmed - https://gyazo.com/e88fabf50d6d6de8014301d424e42a72

Finally, this report was not a report to gain punishments on those involved. However, the responding parties have jeopardised themselves and made their OOC rule breaks known beyond what we assumed.

I completely understand your frustrations, however, I do not think an OOC server rule was broken here (from your original report, I will investigate the video @Jbacon states he has, once he sends it to me), however, there could be some PD rules that were broken. As far as I am aware, police are supposed to keep a high standard of RP and not try to speed up RP when they don't like what is happening. 

3 minutes ago, FireCracker said:

How is this an IC issue when they failed to roleplay in caring for the hostages life.

 

I don't see you scrutinizing them for lying and asking for proof of them using the listening device??

There is no OOC rule on how people should care for hostages lives, except the hostage themselves, or anyone being held up in a robbery, there is a Fear Roleplay rule, however, that states that every player must roleplay significant fear during a situation where their lives may be at stake. 

Pending video from @Jbacon

-Flucifial